SPEAKER_01 0:00

Social media kind of feels like junk food, right? You're scrolling, you don't feel good. Like I what I'm I'm scrolling, like what the heck did I even watch? I can't even remember. Exactly like my like literally like junk food feels like drugs.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

My guest today is Thomas Percy Kim. Thomas is a filmmaker. He is Oscar selected, and he's a Sundance fellow. And he's also only 25 years old. There's this thing that I've noticed in interviewing very successful people. They all seem to understand this concept that you can kind of just do things in life. And there is no better example of that than Thomas. When Thomas was in high school, he wanted to make a film, and nobody would give him money for it, so he just made a stop-motion film. When he got a little bit older, he wanted critical acclaim for his work. So instead of waiting around to get a call, he just turned his own films in to festivals and he won a bunch of critical acclaim. When he wanted to make a bigger film, instead of waiting around for a production company to pick up his script, he just went to his community. He raised$1.6 million from people at home, retail investors. When you hear Thomas talk, you get the sense that you really can just go out there and do things. You don't have to wait for permission and you don't have to wait for the gatekeepers to let you in. Hearing Thomas talk is inspiring, regardless of what you're looking to do. With that, I bring you Thomas Percy Kim. Thomas, actually, before that, do you prefer I call you Thomas? Tom, what do you like? Thomas. Thanks for being on the podcast. I actually want to start where I accidentally started. Um Thomas Percy Kim is not the name that your family gave you, right? Uh I tell me a little bit about that story of arriving at this name. Um why why do you think at the time you felt like you should change it? How do you feel about that decision now? Give me a little bit of background on that.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, I feel like everyone has everyone who is a great artist has their alter ego name or their do you know Gox, the YouTuber? There, there's every artist has their signature name, and it's usually not their given name. Um, and I fell upon Thomas Persicim on accident. Um, I was born in Korea when I was one year old. My parents immigrated to America with a couple hundred dollars in their pockets. And my dad said he was saw Thomas the tank engine, the train engine, whatever the show's called, on TV. And he was like, Oh, Thomas is a great name. And so that's literally how it happened. And then he also gave himself the same name, Thomas. Oh, so we're both Thomas's and then I have a little brother who's 10 years younger than me. And uh we I gave him I gave him his name, his name is Jace. Yeah, uh, but I felt like he would feel left out if we, me and my dad were Thomas's, he wasn't Thomas. So he's also Thomas legally. First name, Thomas, Jace Kim. Wow. He goes by Jace, though, because you know it'd be confusing to have three toms in the house. That is three toms named after Thomas the tank engine. I suppose so. Yeah, and the Percy part came from, you know, like it's the classic immigrant story where you go to school and then it's like the first day of class, and everyone messes up, you know, the teacher messes up your name, and then you get you feel embarrassed. And so I'd always carried this heavy feeling, especially growing up in a in a predominantly white neighborhood in Massachusetts. Um and then around, I think it was, yeah, middle school, elementary middle school, I found Percy Jackson, the series. And that's the first thing that got me into storytelling, the first thing that got me into activating my imagination to which eventually became my filmmaking. And so um I when I gave up my Korean citizenship, so I don't have to go to the military, I legally changed my name. And my dad was like, Are you sure you want to give up the name that your grandpa gave you? Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, of course. Like, who cares? You know, of course, now looking back, I'm like, oh wow, that meant a lot to give that name up. But I came out.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

I've been really excited to talk to you about this particular thing. Um, I have uh my wife, uh my wife's family is Chinese. She was born here. Um, and my brother-in-law have uh and I have a this sort of running list of um interesting, amusing names, particularly like East Asian names, and how people got them. Uh I would put Thomas Tank engine to Thomas on there as well. But to me, it's like it's like vastly underreported and under talked about. This like very specific experience, we've talked about it on the podcast a little bit, but of like coming to America, trying to understand what's hip here and what like people respect here. And then like sometimes as an adult, like your dad did, right? Making the decision on what you're gonna be called. To me, I mean, you go through the experience of naming characters. And I feel like there's a parallel experience there of like, well, what do I want to be seen as in this country? Right. Um, I I guess I have one question for you can connected to that. Do you feel like a different per different person as Thomas Percy Kim versus if I mean I'm guessing at this point it's like maybe two people in your life that call you Sun Clon Kim, right? Do those two things do you feel like a different human?

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Uh obviously it's hard to pinpoint exactly, you know, it's not like I'm I'm transforming into Batman or anything like that with this other, you know what I mean? It's not like that, but subconsciously I am positive there is a difference there and it changes how you perceive yourself. When I feel there's a story, I forget who it was, but someone who also has like a uh alter ego, I don't know, it was definitely not Mr. Beast, but he's the first person that comes up to my mind. You know, if you think about him, maybe he feels a different way as Jimmy Donaldson versus Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast is the guy who has 400 million subscribers, who's done all this stuff, and Jimmy is just a dude from I forget where, from the middle of nowhere with a single mom, you know? And that I mean that's the extreme of I think how it can feel. Uh obviously Thomas Persicum is still a name, it's not like uh uh, you know, it's not Mr. Beast, it's not Mr. Mr. Kim, but uh close enough. You know, it's definitely in like uh I think in its alter ego or something. And I definitely carry a different sense of um confidence uh with that name versus a different name. I can only imagine how I would uh carry myself if I still have my career name as my professional name.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

I um the most interesting recent example that comes to mind for me for that is it's along the same lines is Dave Chappelle talking about how people will come to him and ask him uh if he um who the real person is, the one he's on stage or the person he is in. Because in everyday life, apparently he's far more like demure and introverted and very quiet. And uh everybody thinks that that person is an act, the person on stage is an act. And what he was saying was uh, no, the the person I am right now is an act uh and exists just to make life easy enough for the per so the person on stage can exist. And that's who I really am. So this is an act to just create that moment. And I find that like interplay between these two personalities to be like a very tender, interesting thing. Um but you mentioned Batman, so I'm I have to ask you this now. Um what is the first film you consciously remember watching?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

That might be uh it's a toss-up, but I you know, Spirited Away, the Ghibli film. Yeah, yeah. Uh there there are a handful of films in there. I I don't know exactly what year those were, which one was first, but that was very distinct to my memory.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Um, that is a beautiful film for it to be your first one. Very scary as a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think my first one might have been Conair, with uh, which is why I'm among many reasons why I'm not a filmmaker, because my first film was watching um Nicolas Cage fight over a stuffed teddy bit. Um But at what point do you go from, you know, you watch uh Spirited Away to um becoming aware of filmmaking as an art form, as a craft, as a career. Do you remember the first moment that you even had that thought that this is a thing you could do?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, definitely. Um so I I remember Spirit Away. My dad was a huge sci-fi guy, and so I didn't grow up on any more art house stuff, like anything. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's kind of direction I went. I don't know where that came from. Uh maybe my dad, it's because my dad was also into philosophy and he would like talk about philosophy with me. Um, but I grew up on sci-fi, grew up on like Star Wars and things like that. Um uh what was that called? Uh Pacific Rim, like these kinds of sci-fi robots. Um and the first film that was like the aha moment for me was Seeing Whiplash. That is a defining film for most filmmakers in my generation, like from kind of like when you know, my age. And um, I think I I think it's you see that film and it was made for like three million dollars or something, and it's just pure performance, it's pure story. Um, and it also captures that feeling of ambition that I think a lot of filmmakers need to survive, or any honestly, anyone, any entrepreneur, anyone who's a builder needs to survive. And so that was the first film that really spoke to me. Um, and still to this day I I look back on um very fondly because that is the thing that kind of catapulted everything.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah. Can I ask you about that film? I I remember watching it when it came out as well, and uh it had a real impact on me.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

As a filmmaker, how do you understand the ending of that film?

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Uh how do you understand it? I don't. Yeah, I I don't know either, man. Like I the the quote that keeps getting back to me is the idea of um I think it was like Charlie, what was the name Charlie Flesher? Or no Charlie something like that. Um like the whoever is the famous drummer in the movie, I totally am blank in the name, but yeah, he wouldn't have been him if he had so the whole argument of the movie is yes, Fletcher, Terrence Fletcher, the the the the teacher, he really pushed um Andrew, the main character, to do to do well and to succeed and to achieve greatness. Um and yes, Andrew could have quit, but someone who actually was meant to be great wouldn't have quit, is the argument, I think. And this kind of this reminds me of how I feel about film school. Um and I went to USC, it was like uh number one film school, whatever, I get in, great, I'm gonna be a director, you go and then you learn the stuff, and it doesn't lead to anything. Yeah, anything at all. If anything, it puts you back three paces after you graduate, uh, because you've wasted four years and so much money. And uh they teach you the I think they teach you the wrong things if you're trying to get into the certain like a certain path. Um and it again, it actively that kind of institution actively discourages you to be a director because they want their student to graduate and make money and go do sound or color or be on set, you know, be a gaffer. Uh because everyone comes in wanting to be a director. And so then that begs the question if there was someone who actually great for great there, like the next Ryan Kugler, if they actually went through that institution, they would have been Ryan Kugler anyways.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Despite the challenges and despite, you know, the institution actively discouraging you to be this director. Does that make sense? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

I I if I think about it a little bit as like, um, and there's definitely some analogy there with startups. I think uh you were connecting to this too. Um, I felt like a lot of people go to Berkeley, which is where I went, to uh to go become startup founders. Like they ask me that every time they have me do an event, but like, how can Berkeley help me become a startup founder? And I'm like, it's not what it's optimized for, man. It's optimized for making sure that the largest number of people can get a good paying job in Silicon Valley, right? Which is different and in many ways orthogonal to the work of becoming and it very much like puts you in tension, right? Because you could be getting, again, an analogy where like the uh the connection breaks down at some point, but you're looking at getting a comfy six-figure job working in Silicon Valley or being a founder, and your college education has trained you for the first one. So it's gonna be much easier to have a comfortable life here than to do this harder thing. So I I can I can relate to that for sure. I so actually that the USC thing makes me think about um and kind of studying up for this and preparing for this. I'm fascinated by a couple of points in your story, and they're the ones everybody asks you about. But then I wanted to talk about like a couple that I I've heard you talk about less. Um, the first one, actually, taking a step back from USC for a second, is um growing up in a smallish town in Massachusetts, right? Um what do you think is this like perspective, this kind of like outsider looking in view that you got of America, of American society that you don't think you would have gotten um either if you had grown up in a place with a lot of Korean Americans, or if you were not Korean American, if you were just, you know, another white kid in a white town. That's one. And then I guess the flip side of that is coming to USC, coming to LA, uh, I think fair to say the Mecca of Korean America, right? Like, I mean that's not the right term, but the the beating heart of Korean America is LA, right? Um what was that feeling like of for the first time maybe in this country not feeling different? I don't know if that's how you felt, but I'm curious about that. So those two feelings and you know how they sort of now affect your your view of filmmaking, view of the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I mean, it's been such a while since I was 18 and in, you know, a completely predominantly white neighborhood. Um, but if I were to try and time travel back, I mean uh again, it you know, uh it begs the question whether I would have still found filmmaking or not. Because, you know, for example, if I grew up in SF or even LA, they're definitely more arts friendly versus somewhere like Massachusetts, which is more STEM focused. Even you know, my school is very much STEM focused. And so I do think like I would have had way more opportunities to uh hone my crafts and also just be around other um emerging artists, young artists in high school um or otherwise. I I attended this program called Young Arts, which was great. It's like a org for um high schoolers practic practicing art. Um but uh yeah, I I do remember my first time coming out to LA. I saw Lala Land before moving out to LA. I was like, oh my God, it's gonna be so magical. Everyone's gonna be dancing, there's gay stars everywhere, and it's gonna be great. Of course, you show up and it's like skid rope. Yeah. It's just like yeah, it's just reality, you know what I mean? It's just, it's just yeah, roads, just so many roads. Um, but I do remember uh standing in line for this guy named Justin Chan's second feature, third feature. This is called Miss Purple. It's like a super small indie independent Korean uh film, Korean American film. And uh I remember standing outside of that line, I had never seen so many Asian Americans or Korean Americans specifically who were 30, 40, 50 years old, who had a kid, who had a spouse. I had never seen people like that live such seemingly successful lives, yeah, such integrated, assimilated, again, seemingly um lives. I mean, they were like just normal people, like they had a whole family. Like I've never seen that really before, not not at that level. Of course, they're like Koreans, Koreans in in Massachusetts, or just like American Americans, just like some Korean Americans, but they're all like my age, you know, we're all still figuring it out. Um, so that was quite shocking. That was definitely a huge cultural shock for me.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah. Um that is it. Um again, I just I'm like fascinated by another big reason I wanted to interview you. Um, I'm fascinated by the underreported parts of the immigrant experience. And I mean, there's all the kind of the standard stuff, right? That's talked about, like, yeah, well, I was the only kid in class whose food had fragrance to it. And you know, there's like all of that that I think gets talked about. But I do think that that's a really powerful moment. And I've had that of going to a place in America and seeing Indian people with very well incorporated lives. And that's it, it has nothing to do with white America or Black America. It has nothing to do with any other part of America, just seeing other older people of your race, like the living a life that you had never seen them live. So I think that that's a really powerful thing. Um I um I want to kind of double-click a little bit on the the film school point that you were making. If you, when you look back at it, would you do it again? Would you go to film school again?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Yeah, knowing what you now know. Yeah, I would go back purely because they offer great financial aid, or at least I got pretty good, pretty lucky there um because USA was a private school. Um, so it was very, very affordable for me. Um, so money aside, I met some great friends there. Now, I didn't get anything that I expected to get, which was film education, networked. You know, like, yeah, of course you meet friends, but they're not gonna be my collaborators necessarily until like another 10 years, until you know, all the 60-year-old execs are have have either retired or passed away. And then there's like the next level people come up, right? Because right now it's so saturated that that there's nowhere else to go up. And so all of my um all the graduates, there's nowhere to go up that ladder, you know, or that's at least how everyone's feeling. And so I don't think you're going for the network, at least I didn't, um, or for the education necessarily, or for the even the environment. Like, yeah, like it's it's it's a dedicated environment. It's great, and you know, you get to have fun, but it's it's more fun than it is helpful, I think. What's helpful is doing something that's really difficult and persevering it and figuring something out that no one else has done before. That is helpful. Yeah, that's where you learn. You don't get that in a protected environment.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, it's okay. Let's say uh I have a 17-year-old cousin just gotten to USC film school, um, wants so badly to be Thomas Percy Camp, right? You don't have a lot of time, you gotta give him one piece of advice. What what are you telling them to get the most out of film school?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

I mean, I can't. This is all of the Asian parents are gonna get mad at me if I if I tell them how we actually feel. Yeah. But I will say this. Um, you should they shouldn't use me as an example, but what I did was I went to USC, I skipped all my GEs, all the mandatory classes I was supposed to do. Uh all the general education GEs, and I took all the classes that I wanted to take, yeah, which were things like sculpture, uh, Korean cinema history, um, I think it was like pottery or metals, metal making or something like that. Like just completely random things, philosophy. Uh again, and I skipped all my G's. For some reason, my guidance counselor never called. They every single time I'd sit down with my guidance counselor, he'd be like, you know that you're missing all your GEs from freshman year, right? I'm like, Yeah, I'll do them later. I'll just do them later. And so if I go onto my you know Star's report card and it says my graduation date go like pushes forward a year every single year. I'm technically still on a gap of uh a leave of absence so I can abuse uh Spotify premium for students. Uh and the Google Drive. Um yeah, right now my my estimated graduation date is like 2028 or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Um I this is making me this is reminding me, I never told Berkeley I'm dropping out. So they like, yeah, I completely forgot about this. For like a semester or two, they would send me bills for classes, and then it gets in some point they were like, Yeah, he's not coming back. And so they just figured it out. But um, man, okay, I want to talk about this. Like, I I'm such a fan of like uh how you've gone about building your career. Because to me, it's well, as somebody who knows nothing about film, right? Um, to me, it's like how everyone should build their career in whatever field you're in. Um so your first film, see, right? Uh you I mean I know it's not your first film, but like it's the the the first one out of film school, right? Um that was actually before film school. Oh, was it before film school? Oh month. So my research has failed me completely then. Um well actually I'm curious about that film though. Like, how do you talk to me about the experience of like going from somebody that no one knows to convincing like a pretty well known actor to be a part of it? Uh eventually getting HBO to partner up with you on it. Like How did you pull that off?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

So, I mean, the game of filmmaking, which is very similar to the game of entrepreneurship or whatever you're building, starting from zero, is just figuring out. You don't, you can't, you know, I could say I want to be the next Christopher Nolan, but there's so many steps to get from where I am as a high schooler with no experience to Christopher Nolan, Damien Shazar, whoever in your favorite Jenkins. And I think the best thing you can do, and the only thing you can do, is to um figure out the next step and figure out the next step that'll give you the highest amount of leverage as possible, and then leverage that leverage to get something bigger, and then just double down every single time. Do you know what I mean? So an example of this is um, you know, I I I I wrote the scripts for that film. This was my first live action short film. Um I need money for it. And so I I I mean, I had made a a film, a stop motion film before that called Treasure. It was a it was a thing I worked on for three minutes.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

The only reason I didn't ask about it was because you spelled it in such an USC way. Yeah. I asked you one if it was a Korean word. She's like, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

No, it's just spelled like as if a kid wrote it because you know at the beginning of the film. Um, but yeah, I I made this film and then, you know, um I got about like$12,000 worth of cash prizes from that film. Use that money again, double down. Stop motion. I did stop motion because I didn't have any friends who could help me shoot a live action film. Yeah. Stop motion, something I could do the entire process myself. It took three and a half years, but I could do it by myself. And so then I use that to leverage the get the cash prizes. I didn't expect to get cash prizes, but I got the cash prizes. So then I put that double down on that, put that in, do another Kickstarter raise, um, take on a summer job, um, raise about 20K, and then try and put together my first live action short film uh in the summer after uh high school, graduating high school. Um, my film teacher, my parents tell me, oh, like just go to college. Like, yeah, there'll be so many more opportunities, go do it later, you know, just take a break. Take everyone tells you this. I'm like, now we gotta do it. Now we gotta do it now. It's now or nothing. And so um, I was like, okay, what is the what is the high next highest leverage thing I could do? Get an actor. That's what everyone talks about, getting a name actor. You know, I could do my best to make the best film as possible, but if the actor can't provide do the good acting, then it's not gonna be a good piece. Same with every single other creative position, but um, especially the actor. And so um uh yeah, I just I okay, okay. I need to get to this actor. I heard that the actors have some sort of agents or managers or something. Okay, let me try and reach out to them. And then you know, you do Google, yeah, basically just poll email. Like, how do I find their email? Um, I find out that you can find their emails on IMDB Pro. So then you pay a little bit of money, you get their email, you you know, cold email them, and then that led to a Skype call, which led to him joining the project.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

And um, yeah, I mean, he uh it was at a certain point you put all your cards down and you crossed your fingers. And uh that's exactly what I didn't just got lucky.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah. Um I I'm struck a lot by like we've had a few people on the podcast, everything from like chefs to um uh to politicians. And I'm struck by how that part is shockingly consistent. Where I find the thing that separates a person, an aspiring politician, aspiring filmmaker from the type of person we have on the podcast is quite simply that uh there's a group of people that understand that no one's going to give you a plane ticket to go from here to your final destination. What you can do is to create some air of legitimacy and some like uh even intrigue and some like um intensity around yourself, go in and try to get like a ticket for maybe 5% of the journey. You do that, you do it well, you come back, you ask for a ticket from like five to 50, right? And then go from 50 to 90. Like it's so much of it, and I think that's a type of person that understands that. Like, well, you know, we had on one of our first episodes the youngest two Michelin star chefs in America. And in order to get his first job, he just he wanted to work in Michelin Star Kitch. He was obsessed with his at his whole life. So he just started reaching out to them and required he had to sell his Xbox to be able to like afford the train ticket to go work in London at one of these kitchens. And that, but that was enough to get him a ticket to work to come back for a summer and do a fuller job and then to come back and have a real job at it. So so much of it is like you you put way more into the system than it's willing to give you, but then you establish this credibility and you just kind of keep building, right? Um what I'm interested in in your journey, bringing this back to you, um, you do this like very scrappy. I mean, I'm sure you still have to be very scrappy and gritty with everything you do, but you do this very scrappy thing. Um, and then for your next film, I don't know if this is just like an outside reading, so please correct me. But it feels like it went um this sort of like more um creative acclaim direction, right? Where immediately you get selected for all of these like film festivals and you can get like a lot of acclaim for it. Um, was that a conscious decision to be like, okay, well, I made a film and I sold it to HBO and I did that whole thing, and this next one I want to make one for me and I want to make one for other film people, or was that just kind of a natural development in how you've grown as an artist?

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah, so there is another short I did after C. It was called Pusa 1999, is um that's I'm remembering now. There was a there's a fellowship called the Sundance Ignite Fellowship. It's like a fellowship for young um filmmakers under 25. And I remember specifically, I want that badge on my on my name name.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Um obviously I after going through the whole thing with fellowships and labs, I I I feel the same way about them as I feel about film school, which is that they can't give you a career. Yeah, they just give you this shiny sparkly badge and then say, hey, go off and do something great with it, you know. Um, but at the time I didn't know that I'm like, oh, I want to be a filmmaker, I need to get a Sundance Laurel. That's what I need. And so I like watched all of the past winners um for that fellowship. And then I not I don't want to say I reverse engineered, but I was like, okay, I know what they're tone, I know what they're trying to get. Like there, there's a very certain taste that they're looking for. And um it's very bold, it's very weird stuff, it's very authentic. That like that's the kind of stuff that they they like. And um, I mean, I played that game. I was like, okay, that's what they like. I'm gonna give them what they like, but I'll just do it my way. Yeah. Um, so then I made that next film, which was a super scrappy. It was even it was$10,000. It was even, you know, less than the budget of the first one. And um, you know, with a little bit more experience under my belt, I was able to get that one off the ground. And it was uh um uh I I still feel like I mean I look back on it now and I think that I've learned a lot. I mean, I look I can't honestly, I can't even watch my old trick anymore. Really? No, absolutely not. I feel like I've grown so much since then. And it's like what is the feeling you feel when you it feels like uh an amateur made it?

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Do you feel embarrassed? Or do you just feel like you're just you're just kind of like pinching yourself, like I God, I should have done that differently.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Or is it both? Yeah, it's both. It's both. I'm like, uh I wouldn't if I were to do this again, I would never do it this way. Like I would come treat it, I would do it this way, I would I would not make this mistake, I would fix this. Um like I can point out all the flaws. Like I you have to be your worst critic for anything you do because no one else is gonna be that upfront with you. Yeah. Um, except my mom.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

She's very honest. Um this is a thing that I love when people are like, uh my mom's my biggest fan. I'm like, no, my mom is too, but I'm like, you clearly didn't grow up in like a brown family. My mom will also tell me everything, like every realization that I needed to have that I was overdue for came from my mom. It was the first one always came from my mom. And my mom's a very loving person, but I'm glad she does that for me. And so it's it is a difference there. Uh by the way, can I thank you for being honest about like wanting the badge? Because I'm surprised by how many people ask about that, including on this podcast. And maybe I'm just too cynical, but they're always like, no, I just got a call. And it was like, like, no, you wanted it. It's okay to want it, it's okay to be ambitious in that very particular, it's just okay to like it's okay to not be oblivious to what these badges do, right? I'm curious about like your perspective on it now. I I'm constantly kind of thinking about this with my life. Like, um, spent 10 years building a company, and I've done a lot of things that I'm like quite proud of with that company. But the fucking thing that and the only thing that anybody wants to talk to me about is the Forbes 30 under 30 thing. And it was like that truly was this I got a call. Like and it's like now I sound like I'm lying. But um it's weird to me how both that was not a thing that I was working towards at all. There were badges that I was working towards, like you know, getting to YC was in my world was a big thing. The badges I was working towards, and then some that just fell into my lap. And I'm constantly surprised by how little work they were versus how much of an impact they do have on my life now. And I do think like it's in some ways it's easy now, right? Because now you're Thomas Percy came and you have the badges to be like, eh, I don't think I needed the badges. But like, do you think they help your life? Do you think like every project you do now is helped by the are you glad at some level that you did with Busan 1999 what you did and went for the badges? Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

This kind of this ties in with the whole I mean it's it's it's it's it's basically branding, right? It's it's branding where you associate with another company or another organization, yeah, and you can rub off some of their goodwill and their branding onto your brand. Um, because now I'm like, you know, if you're a Sundance fella, then okay, if Sundance vetted you, so then clearly you must have taste. But I am the exact same filmmaker that I would have been without that badge. Yeah. Exactly. Um and all it is, is it's not them giving me a certain badge that makes me more talented or more qualified. It's me making something, failing, learning from it, trying again and improving, like literally just learning as a filmmaker what your voice is, how to use the cinematic language, you know, how to how to be a leader, like all these things. You know, you just get better at the thing, like you're riding a bike, and that's all it is. Um, but from the from an optics point of view, I totally understand like the perceived value of who you are and what you what you're building does go up because of this association. And I'm still trying to figure out how to like how how I feel about the whole thing. Um for example, like I if I were to apply for other grants or other fellowships right now, I think I have a very high or higher chance of getting them. There's a bunch of them on the market, especially in film. There's a lot of like in initiatives for you know emerging filmmakers. There's one that Tiff has that I was like thinking about applying to. But then I think about, okay, like I am so I'm at this point where I'm trying to scale this like media company that I have and work on my own films and my bandwidth is so limited. And I'm thinking about, okay, if I spend like two hours, even three, four hours on this application, what am I really getting out of it? Am I just stroking my ego and then getting a couple thousand dollars? Yeah. Like even if it's ten thousand dollars, yeah, that$10,000 would be great. But is it worth my time and energy? Because what else am I getting? I'm getting that badge, but do I really need it? It's not really adding anything now that I already had these other badges. If I apply for the the TIFF Director's Lab, which is very renowned, um, great. But I also have had uh done another TIF fellowship and I like my next movie is playing at TIFF. And so yeah, part of it is just ego at that point.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

I'm like, I don't even know if it's what no, I I okay, I'm really curious about this part of it. Because I think we both have friends that probably do this. Where if I was to can try to condense what I think we're boatsing as advice for like a young person, right? I think we're boatsing that it's not that the badges don't matter. That you if you have the opportunity, even if you don't have the opportunity, nobody has the opportunity to be a Sundance fellow, um, you should you should get some badges, all right, that you think open doors for you. But then once you have those badges, do you get addicted to the cheap thrill of getting a badge? Yeah, or do you become about the work, right? And I think we both have people in our lives, I would imagine you do, because I know I do, that just they never made it past stage one. And now they're just like, I look at them and I'm like, dude, not a single founder takes you seriously. You're on every fucking list and you're always out doing events. But I care about the I this is an easy point to make, but I it's true. I care about being appreciated as a good founder by other founders. It's like about my chops, like knowing how to build something. Um and if you like, if you open the gate and then you just got hooked on opening doors and now you just run around opening doors, like what the what the fuck are you doing? Like you just what wasted talent, right? Do you do you feel that way at all?

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Totally. Yeah. Um if you're good at schmoozing, if you're good at talking, if you're good at selling, then you can get those things. You can open those doors, you can get that agent, you can get this project developed by this huge company. Then you like look at their work, and it's like painful, dude. It's so I just uh what's the point? I don't know. It just it it just it just makes me I I just completely ignore it to be honest, because I do think you there is more longevity in a career for people who are able to actually just ultimately produce great stuff. Yeah. Um like forget about the money. The money, you should not be a slave to the money. The money should work for you. Your only goal should be for me at least, is to just some create something great. Yeah, you know, something that helps people, that helps humanity, that pushes the frontier of whatever I'm doing. Um I don't know, I'm very existential, and I I always ask myself, okay, what's the point? Yeah, why am I doing this? And that always brings me back to um ultimately it's just service, and then you know, you get immense satisfaction from that servitude, I think, as to service to who? To whoever you're helping. So you know, you could be Christopher Nolan and you could make uh there's like there's a quote, I forget who said it, but it says like you can either help a lot of people a little bit or help a few people a lot. Um and and like you know, if you're Christopher Nolan, you can make a film and that is your talent. You're if he's really good at that, he should continue doing that. So because then if he makes one film, it can impact a ton of people a little bit, right? And um that's kind of like that's the process of making film versus if I'm an educator or a teacher, then I'm helping a little bit a lot. You know, if I'm educating kindergartners, then that will whatever I say to those kindergartners will definitely affect them for the rest of their lives. Um, and so whatever it is you do, I think you can either impact a lot of people a little bit or a few people a lot, or at least that's that's that should be the goal. Um, and the byproduct of providing value to humanity, to people, I think you get compensated financially. And you can use that money to do good, you know, to help out more people. Um on the way here, I was listening to uh an audiobook. It's called um, I think it's called something 17 or 37 letters to J.D. Rockefeller's son or something like that. Letters to I I've heard of this. Yes, letters to my son. I forget, but it's by JD Rockefeller and it's phenomenal. And the and the chapter that I was reading was about how his view on money is very different from how people normal people think about it. Um there's a story about how someone came up to him and said, Mr. Rockefeller, I I don't know what to do because I'm poor, but I'm also religious just like you. And the Bible says do not like chasing money is a sin. Or something about money being, you know, like lusting over money is a sin. And then Jodie told the guy, he said that no, loving money is a sin. Making money is not money itself is not a sin. And I think there's a there's just some some interesting unlock there where you know, ultimately the goal should be to create as much money as possible because that means you're providing as much value to I mean, as long as you're not scamming people uh and doing it in a in a in a real way, then then you are being compensated purely by how much value you provide to society. So it's a it's a mute, it's a beneficial thing, not only to gain that money and to to to be greedy, to try and achieve wealth, because you know, ambition comes from greed, and nobody wants to admit that because greed feels like it's a it's a nasty thing. But I think those two things are very similar, if not the same. You know, we should all be greedy because then we can achieve um something great and and and ultimately contribute to society. And once you have money, then that can unlock more ways to help other people.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Um that was a terrible way of phrasing very well put. I and I'm actually glad you brought up Rockefeller. I'm gonna take a very highbrow concept you just put forward and make it very lowbrow for a second. I mean it's not lowbrow, but um do you ever watch Shark Tank? Yeah, of course. Um there's I don't know why it's stuck with me. Sometimes it's a good phraseology will stick with you. Um uh uh uh Draymond, is that his name? Uh Fubu guy, right? That's on the Shark Tank. Doesn't matter. Um he said this thing one time where he said, first you've gotta make it, then you can master it, and then you can own it. I think that was the third step. But I think about that, I think about the first two at least a lot. And I was thinking about that when I was researching your career, and I feel like you went on that almost exact journey, right? Where you're like, okay, first you I don't know if you were consciously proving to the world anything, but like you consciously or unconsciously or subconsciously, you prove to the world that you can make a film and you can like go through every step of that, right? Putting something out that you can make a and then with film number two, that you can make a critically acclaimed film, and that you have like the craft and the chops there, you have the artistry. And then with this third one uh with with Isle Child, I think you like you sort of, I feel like turned the lens a little bit on the industry itself, right? Uh, and uh be like, no, no, no, not only can I make something and not only can I make it really good, I will own the means of production here, right? Um tell me about the decision to crowdfund. Seems like you'd experimented with it before, but I'll child was of course bigger. Um tell me about the decision to go out and crowdfund a film.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah. So uh if you know anything about the current state of the industry, um very little. Essentially TLDR, it's in shambles.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Good to know. The reason why is because ever since TikTok came along, yeah, um, every single media company, you know, Instagram, or I guess Meta, Instagram, Facebook, uh, YouTube, they're all they've all shifted from a followers algorithm to an interest algorithm, where you get shown not by the not the stuff that you've not from the people that you follow, but from the algorithm learning what your interests are, right? And that brought on a monumental shift where suddenly you can see exactly what you want to see and just doom scroll infinitely. And it's you know, people say attention is the whatever, like economy or the attention economy, whatever it is, where basically attention is so valuable. Yeah. Because that's how you sell something, you know, like you pay meta to run meta ads to get people to see your ad, and then that converts the funnel to get people to. That's how like maybe 60%, 50% of marketing is just like world work. Yeah, like half of capitalism is just ads. It's just yeah, meta ads, honestly, just meta ads. Yeah. And it's it's completely, yeah, just it's it's taken everyone's attention from and also, you know, people have gotten busier, the economy's doing what you know, crazy stuff. And so because finances are tighter, theaters are going up, the cost to go to theaters going up. Um basically it's uh it's completely devalued entertainment, is what I'm trying to say. And people, when they're tired, they want to they want escapism, right? Like they want to go and watch something so they can turn off their brain for a while so that they can just relax. That's like the purpose of TV or entertainment. And the problem is that ever since TikTok came along and changed the algorithm. Now this thing is so addictive that everyone's attention is funneling from movies to our movies to these, you know, 20-second reels. Yeah. And wherever, again, the attention is, money follows. And because attention is shifting from legacy media companies to social media companies, um, legacy media is shrinking. Like the it's literally collapsing on itself. Uh the industry is so bad. Um, everyone at the top is eating the stuff that the people in the middle would eat, and people in the middle get pushed down to the bottom row. And everyone who's trying to get in, you know, all the film school grads, there's no way in. There's no more position. It's just it there's a scarcity mindset around the whole thing. And so my thinking is that as this attention and money flows from legacy to the social media, I think. Well, actually, let me let me provide a little metaphor here. Social media kind of feels like junk food, right? You're scrolling, you don't feel good. Like, uh, what I'm I'm scrolling, like, what the heck did I even watch? I can't even remember. Exactly like my like literally, like junk food feels like drugs. And you know, it's humans, human behavior to reach for the Oreos first. If there's Oreos here and there's a bowl of salad here, you don't, you're always gonna reach for the Oreos first. Always that's just human nature. But I think when you're eating the Oreos, you don't, as soon as you have that first bite, you're like, oh dang, I should not eat this. I should not eat this. Yeah. And you you're you you the more you eat, the more you want to eat the salad or something healthy. And so I think the first person to create a breadcrumb trail from the social media, the junk food, to the Whole Foods will win in the long term. Because, yeah, I mean, uh, people are becoming more aware now than ever that, yeah, this is junk food. It's literally so soul, soul, so soul sucking. It truly is. Yeah, and people are realizing that now. And I think as the pendulum swings more this way, there'll be more people who are actively against it because of the you know, the health um the health causes. And so again, this is this goes back to what I'm trying to think about now, which is okay, how do I create that breadcrumb trail? How do I position myself in the middle there? Um, and that's why I created this company called The Vandalist, which is our small media company where we are trying to bridge that gap and not only do that through creating social content that makes it accessible for anyone to enjoy something that is human-made and not made by AI, um, but also feel good about it and learn about it and be educated by it, be entertained by it, and also create a sustainable ecosystem around it for the filmmakers, for the artists to survive when it. So we're completely rethinking the financing and distribution strategies for films these days to try and hedge against this monster, this beast that is taking over.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

I find that to be a really like successful analogy. Really? Because I think one thing that that I'm going through this like diet thing right now a few weeks ago, we recorded an episode and I saw my face and I was like, all right, we gotta make some lifestyle changes. And um so I'm going through, I have a really big sweet tooth, and I'm going through this experience of I promise I'm not gonna, I'm not just talking about diet. This is all the point to all of this. Um and so I cut out sweets for about 90 days, basically any added sugars. I'm not doing them for about 90 days. And the one thing I do allow myself is fruit. I love fruit and I kind of don't eat as much of it as I would like to. And I'm finding fruit is this sort of like conduit for me back into healthier eating, right? And one really interesting thing about it is uh I think that the the the dichotomy that you set up is exactly right, which is of instant gratification on one side versus like a delayed gratification that you get from a film or you get from a salad, right? Um, but the other interesting component of it is um the how memorable it is, right? Like uh how much you come back to thinking about it afterwards, right? I have had many meals in my life, obviously. Um, and I don't remember a lot of Oreo housing sessions that I genuinely like were memorable for me. And but there's so many other meals that are like, you know, in the moment probably didn't uh taste as good. But I think about all the time. And it's the same with film, right? Like you genuinely I could spend two hours on reels and put my phone down and you could ask me, name three reels you saw, and I wouldn't be able to do it. Um, but I can tell you in detail about a film I saw 20 years ago, right? So I do think that there's something very interesting there where like the ways in which instant gratification works in the opposite direction of memorability and like in long-term impact on your life, um, long-term positive impact. So I I think that that's a very like good analogy. I am I think like kind of bringing this back a little bit to you, right? Um, this is I'm very happy that we've reached this point of the conversation because this is what I wanted to do for all the aspiring filmmakers that wanted to learn how to do this and all that. Now I've given them that. So now I can ask you about the stuff that I, like as a dork about films that doesn't actually know anything about films, wanted to ask a filmmaker, right? Um first question I have is like, what about making a film makes it so hard? And I'll give you the specific reason I'm asking this. It feels like you have these people so often that are incredibly smart, very well resourced, maybe too well resourced, maybe that's a problem, but well resourced, they'll come out and just make such a stinking pile of shit, right? And you have to be like, I know you guys are smarter than this, I know you have better taste in this, you have the resources. Is it as simple as like the financial motivations push you towards making Oreos? Or like, what about making a film is so hard? Warm Intro is brought to you by WeFunder. WeFunder created this thing called the community round that lets you raise money directly from your community. So instead of going to VCs and rich people, angel investors, you can go straight to your friends and your family and your customers. And, you know, this is not a traditional ad read. I used Wii Funder for my company three times. We ran three rounds in Wii Fund, we raised over a million dollars. And I found that it completely changed how everybody felt about our business. Our customers all of a sudden didn't feel like they were just customers. They felt like they were owners in the business. They shopped with us more, they told their friends about us. My team felt like what we were doing was important because our community had shown up to invest in us. I tell every founder I can find to go raise a WeFund around. Especially for companies that care about community, there is nothing greater you can do than letting that community invest. Go to WeFunder.com slash join. Check it out.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

The reason why it's hard is because there's a lot of variables. It's the equivalent of creating a new startup every single time you make a new film. You're dealing with completely different circumstances, a completely new team, uh completely different budget. You're making starting this world, building this world from scratch. Yeah, if you're writing it, then it's a world that you've never written about most of the time. Um, so it's like a ton of research, it's a ton of and then of course there's like politics, you know, like with the studios who want to make something more commercial and they're giving you the budget, then yeah, you kind of have to listen to them. And then like you're fighting back as an artist, and then it just muddles the whole thing. Like that's one side of it. Dealing with um people who might have um, I don't want to say like not egos, but like your job. Yeah. I mean, again, you my my job as a director is just purely to um like like a founder is just to hire the best people, have a vision, hire the best people, and communicate that vision to them as effectively and efficiently as possible. Yeah. That's all. And then just get get the hell out of the way. Um, but it's it's surprisingly hard to do, or at least there is no mental framework around it the same way there is with like, you know, Silicon Valley or like tech in the tech world, you know, like the uh you could go watch like Sam Altman does his lectures on YouTube, you know. Like you could learn the frameworks around building something. Um, because people have thought about it very extensively, because it's a very like every mistake is very costly. And not to say it's not costly in in Hollywood, but for some reason, there aren't those frameworks in art. Part of the reason is because it is art and there are technically are no rules, but there definitely are frameworks that you should follow, especially when you're building something. Like, yes, the artistry itself can be whatever it wants to be, but the way you talk to your team members, the way you communicate to them, that is all the same. You know, like there are minor differences. Um and so I think the hard part is just there's a lot of variables, and ultimately the infrastructure is flawed. Another example of how how it I think is flawed is you to make anything, you write a script, right? You write the script and then you hone that for a few years, you develop it, get everyone's feedback, and like you know, you do your thing, and then you go and try and direct direct the thing and make the make the movie, put it into um the picture and sound. But the cinematic language is very different from English. It it's completely different. Um can you explain that a little bit more? So, you know, for example, in the script, it might say um Paul walks into the room and uh I don't know, he, you know, he sits down and then we cut to, or like, and then below the table, there's a bomb strapped under the table, or uh whatever the version, whatever the scenario is. Um you can read that and you can imagine your head what that might look like, but there's a novel uses words to that is the final output. But like the words themselves create a certain vision in your head, triggers your imagination. Whereas a film script is is just a blueprint, essentially, sh for all the department heads, all the hundreds of people who get together to make this one product to come together and understand logistics, understand the creativity behind it, understand the character motivations. Like what the actor needs from the script is very different from what the the art director needs. Yeah, you know, and so in order to capture all of that, um ultimately the script becomes it's just a it's just different from the film. Yeah, and a great director knows how to translate that onto the screen, but it just can get messy.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Yeah. I I imagine one really big part of what you just said that I'm thinking about a lot is like, and I know I struggle with this with uh uh running a company, is um having the vision and at some level the comfort being a tyrant to be like this is what I want, and I've been thinking about this is what I want. But then you come to um you know, shoot day uh or whatever the equivalent is for a startup, and you you're like, okay, this person is doing something that is not what I wanted, but I think it might be better. And to at that point, like to have had your fist clenched so tightly up until the moment, and then to suddenly open it, is I think something that takes a lot of practice. Do you do you find yourself struggling with that at all?

SPEAKER_01 55:56

I love that you brought that up because I I didn't I didn't bring up that part of why filmmaking is hard, but that is absolutely a really hard part of the reason why it's hard is because this is my um analogy for it. It's kind of like you know, I I I'm a very visual person, so I will storyboard the hell out of everything, my scripts. You know, I take the scripts, I translate it into storyboards, and then I take the story, I prep as much as possible, like as much as humanly possible. Think about every single version of the scene, every single, you know, shot here, you know, maximizing what the ingredients that I have. But ultimately, you show up on the day and you are given the circumstances that you're given. You show up on the day and you open the refrigerator and there's a certain amount of ingredients in there, and you just gotta make the best omelet that you can out of what you have. Like there's a difference between shooting that scene before and after lunch because food coma hits, yeah, you know, and people are groggy or someone's having a bad day, or someone, you know, there there is always um whatever can go wrong will go wrong, you know, Breppy's law. Like truly that is the case. And every day um you show up and and something different happens. And I think the problem is that a lot of filmmakers walk on to set and they try and force what they're capturing into their vision. Like the I have a vision for the scene, it should be done this exact way that I storyboarded. But then you show up on set and you're missing that key ingredient, but you still try and make that omelet that you're trying to make, yeah, and it just won't work or it won't be as good as you originally thought because you're trying to force it into this box. Versus all the greats, great directors, they know how to improvise and they know how to adapt and they know how to ultimately just let go and just like be okay with that. Steven Spielberg, he just walks on set the morning of at like 4 a.m., walks the scene, finds all the shots, yeah, and then they just film it. Like you think that there's a ton of planning, and then there is a ton of planning, but you let that all go and you just like let your instincts um create the best thing that can be created. You know, for example, like you show on set, maybe it's maybe the sun is shining through that window um and it's hitting that table just perfectly. And it and it that the thing on the table, the apple on that table perfectly captures, you know, something about this character's internal dilemma. And so you have instead of shooting the kitchen, suddenly you shift everything over there because that's where the cinema is. Yeah. And you have the actor, you know, pick up the apple and look at it, whatever it is, you know. Um, knowing how to play with your, with, with the ingredients that you have, um, the light, the setting, and the characters, the actors, um, even the scene that came before it that you haven't shot yet, or the scene that comes after that you've already shot 30 days ago, keeping that all in mind and making sure that everything fits together is also very hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

Dude, uh, this is gonna be about a like a 42-hour podcast because I have so many questions for you. I one thing I'm I'll try to be organized about this. Um, one thing I'm curious about with what you said, right? How the light strikes the apple and what it tells you about the character, right? Um how important is it? Maybe you can answer this in one or two ways. Um, one is like, who are you making the films for now? Or who are you doing that for? Uh, who's the audience in your mind or the stakeholder in your mind? And then number two is like, how important is it for you that because I know my dumbass friends are not gonna pick up on how the Apple struck the light? I know throwing my friends out of this. I'm not gonna pick up on it, right? Um, and I'm somebody who's like looking for this stuff. Does it bother you that a lot of the people that will experience your art will not pick up on a lot of the artistry? Um, or are you like, no, I'm making a thing for them? It's like putting together a three-course meal uh or five-course meal, they'll leave satiated and full, but the real ones will pick up on what I did with every little dish. Like uh, yeah, how how much does that bother you that like somebody might not pick up what you were doing with the way the light hit the apple?

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Yeah, to be honest, it's kind of like um like being a great sound designer or something like that, or a great editor. A great editor, um you know it's a great edit if you don't realize there is an edit. Yeah. Um if you're scrolling on a website, you know it's good UX UI or whatever design. If you don't realize that it's good, yeah, because it's just smooth and just works the way it's supposed to. And so I think I think that's a I think that's a good, you know, example of um how what good filmmaking should feel like.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

I mean, unless you're trying to purposefully use the craft to break someone's attention and and get them to, you know, feel a certain way, um, you know, good storytelling should feel seamless. Yeah. It shouldn't feel broken up. It shouldn't feel like you notice the craft behind it. You should the worst the way the the way I know a film feels amateur is if I can feel the puppet strings behind the film. Yeah. I can feel feel the filmmaker trying to manipulate a certain emotion out of me or the audience. That's the telltale sign for me that, you know. Yeah. It could do some work.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

It reminds me of Dieter Rams, uh, his whole thing, you know, maybe the most famous industrial designer of history, inspired Joni I've inspired a lot of Apple products. His whole thing was, I think still is, I think still around, was uh good design is as little design as possible. And I do think like, and there's I think in there, like you just right there was like a difference between somebody who does this for a living and, you know, like a layman is um I think people on the outside of every industry want to feel the or think they want to feel the movements. Where in fact, what they want is um a film that made them feel sad at the right time and made them feel happy at the right time, right? Like you don't actually want to notice that. So that's that that's that's a really interesting point. I related to this. Um, I'm curious about how making films has changed how you experience everyday life. Uh specifically, I have two versions of this. One is, of course, um something happens, someone says something, and you think to yourself, yeah, this is going in one of my films. This was just, or I I I wonder if it's even that conscious of a decision or if it's just implants itself in your brain and comes out through you later. Um that's number one. And number two is like literally meeting people and being like, yeah, this is a weird motherfucker, and I think he would be a good character in a movie. Um, yeah, but both of those. How how how often does that happen to you that you encounter a moment that you're like, yeah, this is gonna be in a film, or you encounter a person you're like, yeah, I'm gonna base a character off of this person.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it happens not often, but it it happens. I mean, in microdoses every day, because I'm in New York and you you've you miss you you definitely meet characters every day in New York. Um, but it's I kind of like I mean sometimes I'll write it down. I I I should I do write it down, but usually it just stories in my subconscious. And when you're writing, have you ever creatively written before? Creatively written. I don't know if you've ever written stories with characters and you know, with like uh, you know, arc or anything like that. But when you're in that moment, I I'm I'm an atheist, but that is the closest I felt to 100% God. Yes, because it feels like I am completely just channeling these characters, and they're there's a great quote from Dave Lynch, and he talks about how writing is like fishing in your subconscious. You're just like sitting in your sub waiting for these fish to come on you. Like when they come by, then you know you reel them in. I would add to that that I think you have to actually stock that pond with the right fish. And so a lot of these pieces that I encounter, they just they're they're they're raw material, they are, you know, the different types of fish that I can stock into that pond so that when I do end of writing, then um they just naturally get caught. And the way I I see this is, you know, for if I'm writing a uh a story about, I don't know, like a minor or something, and and I don't know, wherever, then I need to do some research first because I need to stock that pond with um ideas and like I need to understand how miners work and how that industry works and what it feels like and all this stuff. You do as much research as possible. And, you know, the thing I learned about miners will maybe can connect with um that person that I met down the street last week. And those neurons connect and suddenly have a story about a coal miner that was like this character that I met last week. Yeah. And again, all of this is mostly subconscious. And uh to answer your question, I I do encounter that and it's never purposeful. But when you were sitting down and writing and and and imagining, yeah, this all just kind of like bubbles up dramatically.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

I am I this happened before the camera started rolling, so I just want to make sure I get this on camera that you did promise me before we started going that you were gonna base the character off of me. You did say that, and uh, I just want to make sure the world holds you accountable. No, nobody should nobody that is uh but no, I I am curious about something like uh related to what you're saying. Um, what is that like essential quality in either a person or a story that sees like there's a film, or maybe more specifically, there's a uh there's a Thomas Percy Kim film to be made about this? Like, what is that little like turn of in events or um personality quirk? Like, is there something did you find there's some through line to the stories you're attracted to, some through line to the people you were attracted to?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Yeah, it's really hard to describe in English because that's why, again, like the cinematic language is a language of its own. Yeah. Um, and it expresses things that the English language simply cannot. You know, if we if if we didn't have the word red, then we wouldn't be able to describe the color red and it would not exist technically since we don't have the word to describe it. I think it's the same exact thing with with um with what how I feel about filmmaking is it is it is able to express something that again, just the English language itself cannot quite capture. Like novels can get close, but it's not even like novels because like the closest thing is music because music is based off of time. There's a clear beginning, middle, and there's a progression every second to it, and there's an arc, and uh no other art form is quite like you know film making. Um but uh that there is a spark or there is a thing that draws me to every project before I start it. Yeah. And I've heard different filmmakers try and describe this spark before. Um, no one has quite put a word to it or have been able to quite articulate that feeling, but there's this feeling that you get. I don't know if you get that feeling when you're working on your startup, but there's a certain vision or a certain for for me, it's like a certain, it's a certain feeling, like it's a it's a it's a combination of images, but it's just a feeling, like the same way you feel regret or uh grief. It's like it's a certain feeling. And then there's a visual and almost a sound and a it's like a little spark, it's like a little beating heart that I feel. And that's what drew me to the project. And it is my duty to protect that little ember and you know, flame and you know, make it bigger, yeah, never lose that spark because that is the heart, literally, that is the heart of a movie. If you watch a really good movie that has a ton of heart, you feel that heart. Yeah, you know, you feel there's something pulsating there that you can't quite capture, but you've never quite felt before.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:58

And if you watch, I don't know, like uh another generic Marvel movie, you're probably not gonna feel that because it doesn't have that beating heart. And I don't know what it is. And no one's again been able to quite describe it or create a framework around it. Yeah. But there is something there. I just don't know. I just don't have the word in English to describe what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:17

I'm not smart enough to, I felt it. I'm not smart enough to describe it. Definitely not for filmmaking. Um, but I think part of it is like this. It's this is not the whole thing, but there's some level of like personal connection to a yeah, problem, to a story, a person. They're like, no, I I think I can do this. Like I've encountered things with with the company, both like campaigns within the company or like you know, new ideas for businesses where you're like, yeah, this is a great company for someone else to start. Like I do think there's some special access. And I again am not don't know myself well enough and not smart enough to talk about where that's coming from, but there's some feeling of like, no, I have some access to this idea that will, I don't know if it's better than or worse than anybody else, but I it allows me to tell this, to do this justice, right? Um so I I guess like for me it's that way, but it's I know what you're saying. It's not the whole feeling. Um off of that, let's say at the, you know, like after a very illustrious career, 50, 60, 70, 80 years of making films, um somebody sits down and watches all of your films, right? Um specifically, um again, I'm really interested in characters. Um what do you think the characters that you have written will tell that person about you if they knew nothing of your biography and they knew nothing about they didn't even know your name. They just knew that the same person wrote all these characters. What do you think that person will think of you? Um, what do you think they'll be able to successfully figure out about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Yeah. I mean, this kind of ties back with what we were just talking about with the beating heart, because ultimately, with all the things that anyone makes, I do think there's a the same blood flows through that heart, through those veins. And I have been trying to figure out I think you can only look back, only in retrospect you can see the patterns, right, with anything. And it's easier for a third party to observe your style or your you know your patterns. Um for my next project, uh, we have like this really, really incredible established producer that we're working with, and um something that she called out on my next script was how I felt like a winding river that couldn't quite reach the ocean. Like the water just pulled up and it couldn't quite reach the ocean. And I thought that was just such a lovely way, and you and it went and in that there was a certain nostalgia and sadness that you feel from this river. And I thought that was just a great way to capture kind of like something that keeps coming back to me and something that I'm currently interested in in this time of my life, which is a certain feeling that feels like there's a certain melancholy to it, but there's also a beauty to it, and that's how we just feel about life in general. Yeah. Um it's like it's just a mixture of, you know, there's uh absurdity, there's there's so much melancholy, but there's also so much beauty and warmth in what it means to like exist as a person and navigate happiness uh in this entry. And currently, yeah, that is just something that's been on my mind. I will say on that point after making a feature film, I'm realizing more that a feature is a product. You raise investments, you sell the thing, it's not yours, it's your audiences. And after making a feature, it did leave me quite sad. Because with a short film, you raise the money, yeah, you can get it to festivals, whatever, but it's yours, like it is purely yours versus a feature or a TV show or anything that is commoditized, ultimately has different sets of expectations. And every hundred thousand dollars that we added to the budget, I felt more pressure, even though there wasn't a studio, there wasn't anyone breathing down my neck, I felt more pressured to make something that felt more commercial, that felt more general, that felt more accessible. And that is one of the biggest mistakes I think I made for my first feature. Is just like, I wish I had just gone bolder. I wish I had trusted myself more. I wish I had taken more creative risks. And I tried, but I I do remember like as the budget gets bigger, I did feel this pressure to okay, like I don't want to lose these people's money, you know, like so I'm gonna do this other thing instead. That'll make it a little bit more generic. And in a world where do you know Naval Rabakant? Uh yeah, of course. Yeah, he I think he has a quote about like how technology allows um distribution to like basically what he's saying is that whoever is number one in a certain niche dominates the entire I do I just watched this reel like two days ago. Yeah, amazing. We're all on the same feed, same algorithm. We're all eating the same lies. Exactly, exactly. Um that's a whole nother conversation. But um and and in that in that kind of world where yeah, where only the the best dominates everything, yeah. I do think you have to make something great these days. And to make something great means it's different from everything else that's been made. Yeah. Um, so there is no place for just good enough. There's no place for not bold enough, I think. Um because then like the ones that are bold enough, they win all the award. They get all the badges, they get, you know, they all every single Oscar's there's only a handful of films that actually make it to the top. And they're the same exact films because they were able to leverage all the resources. Yeah. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

I can, as a fellow existentialist, I can relate to this feeling of like once you take to heart the idea, and as a fellow atheist, you take to heart that there is no God and that this is it, this is the only life you get. Um, and the closest you feel to anything resembling a God is to be in the throes of true creativity and like true sort of connection with your work, right? When you take to heart all of these ideas, um, it makes no sense to to take anything off the table. You you feel like, well, if I'm only alive once, and the best I will ever feel will be to be making something great, or the fullest I will feel, I'm not gonna say best, then the only logical thing to do is to leave everything on the table, to just exhaust yourself with the um uh with work, right? To just uh yeah, to put everything you can out there in this one life that you have. Um, on that note, for this sort of last chunk, I have a handful of questions for you to close this out. I want to actually turn this on to you and understand. I mean, of course it's all been about you, but I want to understand a little bit more of how you feel now about your career at the stage that you're at. First question I have is Um do you feel accomplished?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

Do you feel successful? Definitely no, but I'm trying to think about why I would say that.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:00

I mean, the ladder is very tall, like very long. There's always a way up. Um I think I've done a pretty good job of keeping my objectives in line. For some people, that might be money, and that's fine. You know, money is always, but it should not, that's not the end goal. It should money should always be a means to an end, like to scale something to whatever, right? To make the next thing. But it's not, I don't think it's money. Like I do want to like retire my parents, like uh great money's great, but it's not even like the it's not the recognition because uh there's this story that I think Matt Damon shared where he he won an Oscar. I think it was for Goodwill Hunting. Yeah, it was like one of the youngest actors to win an Oscar, and he finally did it. He got the Oscar, and then after all the parties, he went back home and he like slept into bed. He like kissed his girlfriend goodnight. It was like 3 a.m. and he held the Oscar and he's like lied there, and he was like, he cried. He cried a lot because he felt like he'd wasted his entire he know, he he had he had he had imagined himself 60 years old, spending and wasting his entire life to get this little damn trophy. Yeah. Only to realize that it didn't do anything for him, it didn't change anything the way he felt, the demons that he carried or the struggles he felt. And like it's really hard to imagine yourself in that shoes without already being there. It's hard to understand that money won't fix your happiness until you have a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:31

It's hard to give until your own stomach is full. But you can try and you can practice and you can um, you know, use your imagination to to imagine, okay, like if I got all this, like what would that actually change? And I've heard every single person who's obtained a lot of wealth that that doesn't change anything. Like you wake up, you see your bank account, there's it looks like a phone number, but then you go to work and you do the same exact thing. You just like you eat your food, you know, you take your shit, like you like go to bed. Like, yeah, that's just the same, you know? And I think that's very humbling. And I think it makes you think again, the bigger picture. And like I've I've lost people in my life, and like I've I've you know done the whole thing. And I think it it really you have to center yourself into um like what is actually important. I think success is what you define success as. And for me, I think success is um being able to give as much as I can give to the world. Um and that's a whole nother tangent on like what exactly I'm doing to do that, not just by making films, but like educating filmmakers and and trying to bring this ladder back down to filmmakers because again, it's not sustainable the way as it is right now. Um but yeah, that that's my half answer for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

My grandfather um uh was an author and he wrote a short story. One of my favorite short stories that he wrote is about um uh Tenzing and and Hillary climbing Mount Everest and then just kind of looking at each other and being like, well, fucking now what? And I think that that's that the feeling that you're talking about, right? Like you I don't know the answer. This is a thing I think about a lot. Around like I know intellectually and through every bit of data that I have collected in my life that chasing success won't automatically lead to happiness and contentment. But also I don't know how to trust that instinct unless I actually taste success, right? Yeah. And I think that that tension, I think intellectually, um, even emotionally, I know that that's not what's gonna like, yeah. I I find that that's like in some ways the hardest puzzle in life, right? That everything you need to be happy is right there. It's time with your friends, time with your family, it's good food, it's uh it's good health, um, you know, whatever. Uh it's a good job. It's it's all right there, but then you got all the stuff. As the Buddhists would say, it's all it's the monkey on your back, right? That's like whispering in your ear, like, Thomas, another award, right? Like, and it's just that sort of tension of like knowing, well, it's fucking right there. It's a great salad, right? But then the Oreos are just whispering in your ear. And not just Oreos, but like the Oreo factory is whispering, like Thomas, you could own the Oreo factory. Like, it's such a hard thing. So, but I I I relate to that. Um, I want to, for my second to last question, I want to ask you um, how have you um how is making films? There's so many of your films, we didn't we actually didn't talk about this enough, or about the Korean experience, the Korean American experience. Um how is kind of going on this as almost like a research project has that helped you understand your kind of, I guess, demographic position in the world more? Like, do you understand what it means to be a Korean American better now, having made all these films?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

I think being thinking about what it means to be a Korean American, it was really important to me between the ages of 14 to 22 because you know, I was transitioning from again a predominantly white neighborhood to to the whole world. Well, that is, you know, you you you break out of that bubble and there's a a a culture shock, and um that was most prevalent on my mind. Especially, especially I also think politically, like that the we were, you know, growing up in you know 2018 is different from the way it is now. That has also changed. People are a lot more accepting. Um like I like my little brother runs a K-pop dance group, you know, in high school. And it's like great, like that would not have existed, you know, or just like people being obsessed about K-pop demon hunters. Like that is I would not have existed. I imagine that to be the case. So a lot has changed. Um, I also think that I don't know. I a part of me thinks that you can always I could, you know, I could tell myself, yeah, like I'm Korean American, and that could be either a negative thing or a positive thing, right? So I could either that could either boost my confidence or it can diminish it. And you know, it's good to feel proud about you know what Korean culture is doing for, you know, the world and stuff. That's great, you know, whatever. Um, but the negative stuff I am very hesitant to attach myself to because I say this um the negative stuff I'm hesitant to attach myself to. The negative things about Korean American identity I'm hesitant to attach myself to because there are always there's always a reason to make an excuse for why you can't do something. And I think growing up I felt definitely a little bit diminished by my Korean identity. You know, like, oh, there's no other Korean American director out there. I can't be a director, I can't do this, I can't do that. There's always an excuse. Everyone has an excuse. I'm too overweight, I'm too skinny, I'm too, I'm not smart enough, I'm not, you know, X, Y, and Z. There's yeah, a million excuses. And at certain point, you will believe those excuses to be the case, the limiting uh factor to you achieving that thing. I think the only way to break through that boundary is to not put those labels onto yourself. Yeah. So like, yeah, I'm Korean American. I still feel like I'm not very articulate in English. It's taken me a lot of practice to um to speak this way. And even now, English feels wrong in my tongue and like it doesn't feel natural. Uh, my voice doesn't articulate the way I want it to. Versus when I talk in Korean, I'm not super articulate, but it feels natural to my tongue.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:50

And so I never completely always I never always feel completely articulate. And like that is one limiting belief that I have about myself, about my Korean Americanness. But like if I let that be an excuse to achieve the things I want to achieve, which is talking here or being in front of like other people or like public talking, or you know, we're launching this live academy. Do you know about TV PN?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:14

TV PND Yes, we've been talking about it endlessly at the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:17

We're trying to do our own thing like that. Yeah, for the film, for the film industry, yeah. Um, next month. Uh we have been thinking about this for a while, but it's funny that they got acquired. Um 200 million dollars. Wild. Yeah. Wild. Everyone's gonna follow that copy their model. Yeah. Anyways, that's what that's yeah, some reconversation. But um, like showing up live every week and like talking to people live. Like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be online, I don't want to do this, but like that is the sacrifice I need to make to get to where I want. And I don't think that putting limiting factors on myself based off my identity and my Korean American-ness will help me. And so I only try and think about the positives of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:58

Um, this was not gonna be, I was supposed to ask my last question, but I'm just curious about this now. Um, as a storyteller and as a Korean American, um, are there parts of what it feels like to be Korean American, what the experience of being Korean in America is that you don't think people on the outside understand? Um I'm yeah, I guess I'll leave the question to that. They're like, is there what is it that you think people on the outside really don't understand about the experience of being Korean in America?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:54

I mean, I could talk about like the cultural specifics of what it means to be Korean American, but I think there's a lot of commonality between being a Korean American and just being an immigrant in general, just honestly a foreigner anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:11

I'm sure you feel the same exact way. To be honest, there's also another Naval quote, but just something like about how like uh the as long as you understand the basic concept of something, that kind of cross-applies to almost every other industry. Yeah. And I think it it's not even just industries and and and crafts or technical things. I think it's just the human experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:31

There's only so many ways that we can think about the world and experience it. And like the same way math is a language on its own, um uh, you know, filmmaking is is uh a different type of language or way we see the world. And that's the same as the way we experience the world as a Korean American or an Indian American Indian American, yeah, or just as a foreigner in general. Um to I for for an American who is not a foreigner, they probably feel like they belong here or they've always been here. So they feel super assimilated. I think that is more of a a difference than Korean American versus Indian American. Do you know what I mean? And so like I could talk more, I could talk about like the specifics of what it means to be a to be a Korean American a Korean um who grew up in America, but I think it's more apt to um talk about the differences between um someone who didn't grow up where you are right now versus someone who did grow up. Yes. Yeah. Um which we can go into if you're interested.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:37

But oh I'm not it's the only thing in my life I'm interested in is truly I do find like so much of life as I get older, I keep finding out about this, right? Um I see it everywhere. So much of life is defined by the tension between the people that left their hometown and the people who never left their hometown. And I find that you and I can have many different quarrels about many different things, and there's so much that we won't agree on. But the one thing that I know exactly about your experience is what it feels like to be an outsider, right? What it feels like to arrive somewhere and both the promise of it and the fear of it and the surprise of it of being new somewhere. I think about this all the time. So I I have an interesting thing where, you know, I actually am I'm first generation. I'm not even American yet. So I'm like uh my parents still live in India. And I find that it find it very interesting. Now my wife, on the other hand, uh was born here, but her parents immigrated. And there's this weird thing where, in some ways, my wife and my parents have that in common, that they both stayed. I mean, you know, but it's different for her uh because ancestrally not connected to LA, but she has that in common with my parents, and I have that in common with her parents, that her parents and I had gone through this very specific, and you did too, this very specific experience of knowing the place and to now all of a sudden have another place be your home. So I find that even down to like people love to hate on tourists, right? And I'm like, yeah, that's fine. It's fun to hate on tourists, but know that these are the best people from where whatever place they're coming from. Because these are the only people, like I know they're corny and I know cargo shorts are lame and all of that, but these are the ones who decided San Francisco was worth seeing. Um, would you rather encounter the ones that didn't want to see San Francisco? Would you rather be the ones that didn't want the adventure or the surprise or weren't okay with the fear? So I think about that a lot. Um, and I I think you described it perfectly. Uh this is my final question for you. And I'll kind of finish where I started. Um years from now, a film is made about your life, right? Um what do you hope the ending will be? And much like Whiplash, what do you hope that ending will mean for the viewer?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:04

You can take your time with that one. I need to do that exercise where I close my eyes and imagine myself at 70 years old. Please do. And then do you know this exercise or you I've never done it, but that sounds good. Tell me about the exercise. I don't know, I don't know if it's something that people actually do or if I'd made it up in my head, but maybe I made it. I don't know. But yeah, you made it sound like a proper practice there. Basically, what you do is like you close your you can you just imagine. Basically, imagine yourself at 60, 70, 80 years old, really try and imagine how you might walk, how you might look, how you might see the world and how rigid it might feel, and how your mental ability is declining, and everyone around you is also, you know, looks like you and is is a lot older, and you have your, you know, maybe you have grandchildren, or there's kids running around, and you know, you've just been worn down by life. And you think about you sit down on your porch or wherever you want to sit, and you imagine a fond memory from your 20s, early 20s, or wherever, you know, you're some fond memory that you have. It could be anything, you know. I I think about like running around campus with my USC friends, or I think about you know, like the people that you meet and the things that you've done, or sometimes when I'm scrolling on my iPhone uh album or iCloud album, you know, scroll all the way to the top, and you look at some of those photos, and it just triggers these memories. There's people and like you've probably lost contact with them and you don't remember if they remember you, but it's such a innocent, it's such an innocent time, right? And then they and then like skip a little bit forward ahead and and think about what you did yesterday or what you did today and imagine it from that perspective of when you were older and how how you would give everything to just get back to that point. Because everything always looks bright and golden in retrospect, right? And the and your memories, you only remember the good stuff. Yeah. And so, like, yes, you're going through some hard stuff right now, but then it thinking about it that way not only makes you nostalgic about the the the present, but also makes you appreciate and see just the bright parts of it, you know. Like I'm doing this thing, I'm doing the thing that I've always wanted to do. I'm my parents are healthy, like I'm I'm or you know, they're gonna be fine, everything's gonna be fine, you know what I mean? And like ultimately, like all the money problems that you have, that won't matter in the future, you know. Like you're just gonna die, like that's just just gonna be like game over, you know? So like it doesn't matter. All that matters is I think all that matters is like have you died without any regrets? Yeah, and that means did you get what you want? Yeah, which means did you try hard to get what you want? Which means, do you know what you want? And so and then you of course you open your eyes and then you're you're back, you're in the past. Like I'm back in the past. Like this is I'm the age I am now. Like I snap my fingers, um, I've time traveled back to where I am right now. Maybe I'm just too young to feel like life is actually long because people say life is long, people say life is short. I don't know. But it definitely feels like time has gone by really quickly. Yeah. Especially post-COVID.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:40

And is that a good uh I think that's a really good final scene for the Thomas Percy Kim film, isn't it? Like you sitting on your porch and just this vignette, these vignettes start to run through your head of all these moments, especially this, these moments, right? Um, of being young and out there and and living your life and not to get too meta with it, it constantly imagining what how you're gonna feel about it when you're on the porch. And then slowly Thomas Percy Kim slumps over and that's it. These curtains, right? Um, the credits roll. The credits roll. Uh I think that's a beautiful place to end. Uh Thomas, thank you so much for being on the pod, man. That was beautiful. Warm Intro is produced and edited by J Wan Moon and Alex Aiko. Hosted by me, Chai Mishra.