My guest today is Sidra Kasim. Sidra is the founder of Adams, one of the fastest growing and and most exciting sneaker brands to come out in the last few years. I wanted have Sidra on because I think as an industry, our sense of risk and bravery has sort of gotten scrambled in the last few years. I'm gonna put this plainly. If you went to a really nice school and you were deciding between taking a job at Google or going and starting your own company, it is simply not that big of a risk, and it's simply not that big of an act of courage to go and start a company. You knew you were gonna be fine. And by the way, anything I'm saying about these founders applies to me too. But there are founders out there for whom being a founder is a big risk. They have to put their entire lives, everything they know on the line. SRO is one of those founders. SRO grew up. And the outskirts of Lahore, and she had to go through a lot to get here. It's truly incredible that somebody that came from the places she came from could have achieved so much in such little time through so much adversity. It was the first time in this podcast that I actually found myself losing track of time listening to her. Her story is so beautiful and so inspirational. I could not be more proud to have RA on the podcast. And with that, I bring you SRA Kasim from wefunder's office on Mission Street in San Francisco. This is Warm Intro CiDRA. Um, thank you so much for, for being on the podcast. I, um, I love your story and I will have done a lot of this in the intro. Um, but I've been, I've known about what you're doing for. For pretty much since the beginning, and I've, you know, I've, I saw the Kickstarter when that came out and I read The Humans of New York when that came out. I'm dangerously close to being. A fan. A fan boy. But I wanna start with, um, I wanna actually have you describe someone to me. If we can start by describing your mom. Um, just what is she like, what's her personality like? What's her, what kind of life has she lived? Just, just tell me everything about her. What does she like? Yeah. First of all, thank you for having me. Um, actually this is very interesting. No one ever ask about my mom, and especially in an interview, uh, oh. Except Brendan Stanton once, um, my mom, I think she more, I am now, you know, getting older. Mm-hmm. Um, I realize that I'm more like my mom. Yeah. So my mom, she, I always saw her, someone who dream bigger, bigger than you know, the ideas that were given to her. And she was grew up in a house household where she was, um. Number two, and I, oh, I'm number two also. And she was number two also. And um, does she have an older sister also, or She has an elder brother. Okay. She has, uh, six si. Six sisters. Six sisters. Mm-hmm. And two, uh, three brothers. Wow. So big family, large family. And she was someone who got married very early on and then somehow. Uh, my mom's brother mm-hmm. Promised, uh, asked my father to make a promise that even after marriage, he wants his sister to go and get, uh, graduated. Wow. And my father agreed to that. Um, and that honestly, like that changed the whole trajectory of our family because my mom become the first, uh, woman in her family, or I think at the time, in, in, in her extended family too. The first woman who graduated. Wow. And then I remember then she, she was also doing teaching, but at the same time she was preparing her master's exams. Hmm. Um, and then she was also dealing with three kids. Oh my God. So I always saw her, like someone who was always, you know, thinking about what she can do. And then, you know, she's also very strong personality. Yeah. And, um, then I also saw her in, in a next phase where she, she was earning a really good money. Um, I saw her fighting for her bank account with my father at one point. Wow. Because my father wanted her to have her first check into his, his account, and my mom said that I want to have, and there was a big fight. I remember clearly. And then somehow later on, government made this rule that you have to get your salary mm-hmm. Into your bank account. And that's how the change happened. Wow. So at the same time she was fighting with that mentality. She was. Taking, you know, a leap into her career. But then she did something really amazing, which, you know, until to this day, I, I am like, wow. She, uh, started saving some money and she started acquiring some land and then she started building apartments. Wow. So every on, every summer, um, you know, when she has a summer vacation, she would like just go build an apartment and give it for rent. And that kind of become a recurring income Oh my God. To sustain, um, six children. We are also large family, like four sisters and two brothers. So, you know, my mom, I think she, I, if I have to say one word, she is basically the real foundation for all of us. Yeah. Especially for all sisters. And, and I. I, I am just realizing that we all sisters are really, really strong. And also we are, if I see, like all of us are successful in our own ways mm-hmm. And it's because my mom set up that foundation. So I would just say like, she's basically like foundational Yeah. To the entire family. Do you ever wonder if your mom had gotten the opportunity to come to America mm-hmm. And be an entrepreneur over here of how far she could have gotten? Honestly, I, I think she would be the president. Oh. I, I, I don't think so. I, I don't know. I mean, you know, the thing about women, even if you see, um, in your own circle too. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, you know, uh, we give resources to women like chunk by chunk. We don't like give them the same space as everyone has. So I just, I'm just looking at, I mean, I, it's hard for me to even think about what she could be, uh, but I know for sure the kind of resources were given to her. Mm-hmm. She made tremendous, uh, you know, uh, things out. She made, um, she not only like sustained herself, gave us a good, good, uh, you know, inspiration and, and way of thinking forward, but at the same time, she actually provided a financial stability to our family. Mm-hmm. So, and my father, she, he has, you know, my father has. A complete, like a, he, he has a freedom to play in any playing field. Yeah. And my father was like, really, you know, kind of reserved person. He was not exploring out, out there. I don't know from where it came, but then I saw the same thing happening in my brothers too. Yeah. Um, so when you asked me this question, honestly, I, I, I can't even imagine what, what that possibility could be. All I know that she created whatever she could, but like bigger than what she could. Yeah. Um, uh, at the time, and even still to this day, she's doing a lot. My, uh, my uncle always says this about his mother, my, my grandmother, um, he always says,'cause uh, you know, we're all really big fans in my family, of my grandfather, you know, we all talk a lot about how far he took the family and everything he did, and how, you know, we all live much better lives because what he did. Mm-hmm. And the one thing my uncle brings up every single time we talk about this, he says, if my grandmother had been in charge, we would've been like 10 x further. Yeah. And so, I, I think about that a lot. Yeah. Because we're, we're still in a place, even this generation where these are still hypotheticals. Right. Absolutely. Especially ly where you and I are from. Um, you know, we grew up not that far from each other. Yeah. You grew up, how far from Lahore? Uh, it's 120 kilometer. Yeah. And, uh, yes, I'm, I grew up in Delhi, so whatever that is, right? Yeah. Like, it's, yeah. I'm in Lahar and Delhi, you know, already pretty close. Yeah. It's, uh, anytime there was a, though there was a war between the two countries. It was always the Pakistani army was trying to get to Delhi and the Indian Army was, yeah, we can occupy Delhi. We can occupy lahar. You know, my, my dad's favorite story to tell, it's, he's gonna be embarrassed that I'm sharing this because he talks about one of the wars, one of them, yeah. However many there have been. He talks about how the Pakistani army wanted to, was saying that they were gonna have dinner in Delhi, that they, they were gonna get in and they were gonna have dinner in Delhi. And then at this point in the story, my dad leans forward and says, but we had breakfast in La Lahore. It's his favorite story to tell that. But anyway, that's his boomer dad war stories. Oh my God. But I wanna bring this back to you and to your family. So you're growing up 120 kilometers away from, uh, from Lahore. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, the daughter of, uh, two teachers, right? Mm-hmm. And they're taught at the same school. Uh, no different. I see. But in same city, I'm not gonna ask you to describe the, your, your whole childhood to me. Yeah. But are there stories especially about their relationship, your parents' relationship that are kind of like seared in your memory Yeah. That you think about a lot? Yeah, I do. And actually I think they, um, not only like, uh, those moments, they kind of like sealed in my brain, but I saw them over and over again in different shapes. Mm-hmm. Even though I moved from okra to Laha Laha to San Francisco, to New York, I saw those things. So example, one of the thing which I always question and I always saw like they were. They were both very loving parents. Like one of the best, uh, even though I would say my mom was a little bit strict, did you get hit as a kid? Oh yeah, for sure. Well, which of you, which of the siblings got hit? The, I don't mean to do because I, I, yeah. I always like either question or like not listen and do. Me and my younger brother, brother who's younger than me, we too. Yeah. Rest of them, they were always in safe zone. It is really sad that in DEI families, the kid that gets hit the most is always the kid that asks the most questions. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, asking questions is not encouraged, but anyway, let's, yeah. You know, like that, that's, that's the reality. And also like, you know. Not just asking the question, but also when it doesn't make sense to them. Yeah. They won't listen to you. They will do what makes sense to them. Yeah. So that's happened to me a lot. But, um, one of the most profound memory I have seeing their relationship, I think from a good side, they were really good managing their finances. Um, so even though when my father later on like realized that it's so important for my mom to have financial freedom, he gave a lot of, you know, I think in, as I told you initially, it was hard for him because he never saw that kind of structure in a household. Uh, but later on he was very supportive to my mom and I saw that. They were, they had one account where they were saving and they were making an investment together. And then they were also like spending, uh, one side of it. And honestly, this type of concept was not very, um, normal in Pakistan normally. Like the idea was like, okay, men go for earning and they spend the money and then women, whatever they make to save. Um, and they're not bound to invest, but they were like really good at that. The second thing, which actually I had always, um, had hard time understanding was my mom and my, my dad both were teacher. Um, so they used to come home at 2:00 PM and my mom, she would change her clothes and she would go to kitchen, start cooking for everybody. Mm-hmm. And my father, he would go and take a rest. Yeah. And then every morning my mom, she would wake up and, and then she would, uh, start pressing his clothes. And then by the time we were little grown up, we were making his shoes ready. So polishing his leather shoes in the morning and my, my dad, he would just do his shave and stuff and, and make himself ready. And my mom, by that time, she would not only, you know, prepare food, clothes, uh, for him, but she would also make all the kids ready. Yeah. And then she would make breakfast and then she will go to school. And then I told you, like my mom, she would, she was also, you know, thinking how we can make investment in a way that can be productive. And then so she was like always like doing a lot. Mm-hmm. And so that always like, kind of, uh, stayed in my, in my mind. And I remember my mom told me later on, probably I was five or six years old, we were doing a lunch together. And I said to my mom that. Um, I said, du I said like, uh, why, you know, this is not fair. So in English, I, I, I said that, uh, mama, I just wanna say something that, you know, you both come home at the same time, but you go in kitchen and cook for everyone. Yeah. And my and my father go, uh, for rest and I don't think so. This is equal, this is fair. And I remember that my mom registered that somehow, but she, but she brushed that off. Yeah. And, and later on I also like, kind of, sort of like called my father out and he was not very happy about my comment. Um, so, so those kind of things I saw and, and I saw these type of things where women are taking more. Yeah. Not just like in my household, but also when I, I thought like, I'm living in ra, it's like little backward and whatever, but I came to Lahore. I just found in most educated family the same structure. Even in the US too. Honestly, like in, when I was in San Francisco, I could see, I, I know like here, there is still some balance, like men contribute mm-hmm. In the kitchen and stuff like that. But still, there is, there is a gap that I see in one way or the other where we, you know, women are doing a lot more and men, you know, are, are, yeah. Have a lot more choice, I would say. Uh, and again, I'm not like, I'm not like thinking society, like just black and white. Of course there are places where they come together and do, but this one thing, which I always notice that. You know, my mom thought she never had a choice. My father thought that he has a choice. Yeah. No, it's, and it's at a level that I think it's, it's so ingrained, right? That, um, you know, my wife and I, we we're buying a car right now, and so we have to plan out, okay, well this is a car I'm gonna drive, this is the car she's gonna drive. And, you know, there is almost an expectation when you talk to people mm-hmm. That the bigger car, the one that will hold the children Yeah. Is gonna be the mom van, which is, and I can just have any car I want. Of course I can have a car that can't even fit a baby seat. Right. It's at the level of our language mm-hmm. That when we see a big van, we call it a mom van. We don't call it a dad van, but it's, again, that's a tiny little example of American life, but Yeah. But it is coming from somewhere. Yeah. Which is, you know, deeper. Exactly. Uh, it's, you know, when you think back to, uh, your, your childhood were, are you happy. Most of the time were you, this is kind of a strange question to ask, but um. Yeah. What do you, what do you remember about, how do you remember feeling most of your childhood? Yeah, I think, um, great. But at the same time, I, I remember that I always wanted to get out of my town. Yeah. Get out of my school, not be in my school, not in my house. Just explore the world and, uh, you know, not even, you know, go in a, uh, career, a career trajectory that is set up for women. Because I clearly remember that there was hundreds time this conversation that as a woman. The most, um, you know, successful path for you is you should become a teacher because, you know, you can come at back at 2:00 PM mm-hmm. You can have done your family and your kids and all of that, the things that my mom did, or if you are brilliant, which I was not, you can become a doctor. So, um, I, I hated, you know, that the other, both of the paths, honestly. Yeah. And particularly with this idea when they say like, if you're brilliant and smart, you can be doctor or you know, you can be an engineer. Um, but I was none, so I was like, ah, like whatever. Yeah. And actually lingering on this point for a second, right? Like, I do think that this is a very popular point among like. Uh, they see like brown uncles. Yeah. Is anytime you bring up any kind of inequality Right. They will, you bring up like income inequality for example. In, in that part of the world, they will immediately go to, but you know, moldy used to sell chai or something. They'll go to like the one example, one example of uh, someone who had that, you know, unfair circumstances. But I, I think I've heard you talk about this. He talked about, I think in the humans in New York thing, and I actually, I loved it. There is this requirement of brilliance. Yeah. And not just brilliance, like,'cause I think you're brilliant. Like, I think what you built is. I genuinely believe none of the people that were scoring better marks than you in school could have pulled off what you've pulled off. But, um, you have to be brilliant when you have these, uh, disadvantages in that society. You have to be brilliant in a very specific way. Absolutely. There's a way higher burden of brilliance. Yeah. Whereas most the guys, uh, in, in those societies and those generations especially, could just, you could just walk in putting in minimal effort. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And still have a very good life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But, um, anyway, so, but anyway. Yeah. I like how often you say that you're, you weren't Yeah. A genius. Yeah. Um. But, so tell me actually about like, uh, getting out, right, because you always wanted to leave. Tell me about how that actually happens. First to Lahore and then actually eventually to San Francisco. But first let's talk about like how you get out to Lahore. So one of the thing which I actually heard a lot, which I. Always question. And I almost felt back many, many times. So the one thing was I was always fighting about something. So, um, because why you got hit so much. Yeah, exactly. So, um, there was like this one thing which I heard a lot, even though I saw that women in my, that household or in my town, they were doing a lot, but still there were conversation whenever there was a big decision making, they would say, oh, like, we heard your opinion, but you know, like women, they don't have enough brain. So you know, we are gonna make the decision. And then somehow they would have a religious, uh, you know, example of something which was crazy for me. And as a child, I was looking at human body, like, okay, we have a brain, we have the same hand, and you know, all of that. And I was like, okay, my brain and the person who's talking, we kind of have the same brain. If it is different, it should shape different, you know, but it, it is the same shape. So I was questioning a lot. So I mean, when I, somehow I discovered a few. Things on, on tv particularly, there was a program we had, uh, by Ash m called Zaia, where, you know, they would sit, uh, in more like a, uh, you know, b text style. Mm-hmm. I don't know how, how to say it, like where people sit, sit, I also dunno how to say it. Yeah. In, I guess it would just sit in like a circle or just, it's like a little like gathering Exactly. People, yeah. And then he would, he would tell stories. So he, he lived a very um. A amazing life where he lived, he traveled around. Well, he also a very good writer, by the way, if you Yeah. Ever. Uh, his book, I think he has a book called Zia. Anyway, so I used to, like, every week I used to wait for that program. Mm-hmm. And I used to listen to that because it felt to me that, oh, somebody can talk to everybody on the same way. Um, and somehow like that helped me looked into this, that there is a world out there that is bigger than where I'm living and I need to like always look for that. So what I did was, um. When I started using internet for the first time, I heard about a company named Rosie pk. Uh, you could like find a job over there and then, you know, um, kind of like, you know, and you can create your resume and apply for jobs. So I applied job over there. Mm-hmm. I got few interviews, um, and I told my mom, um, she said she first, she said, okay. Like she, she was like, she's not too serious forever. Mm-hmm. Because I was talking about so many ideas. So she was not thinking like, which idea? She's like, mm-hmm. Really, uh, serious about at the same time I was applying for a radio station job and, and stuff like that. How old were you? I was at the time, probably like 18, 17, 18, something around that. Mm-hmm. So, um, then, um, I told my mom, no, it's very serious. I'm gonna go. And she called my father and she said like, no, we can't allow her where she's gonna live. Um, I think she's trying to run away from, from her house. She was right. She was right. So she somehow convinced my, so my father first said, no, it's okay. Like if she's going for an interview mm-hmm. Um, she will come back. And then later on, um, my mom, she had some conversation in private, my father, with my father. And my father called me and said like, you are not going. Wow. And you know, when your father say, you are not going, like, now you have, you have no way. How you gonna get out of your house? Like that kind of household I had. So I spent my whole night sleeping on that. Uh, couch in our, in our TV launch. Um, and then my father, somehow he saw me that he woke up early morning, um, and then he saw me. I was there and, and he looked at me and he said, like, you really wanna go? I was like, yeah, I really wanna go. Mm-hmm. He said, like, get ready in 10 minutes because we are going to LA Hall for some of our, our things so we can take you, uh, with you and we can drop you, but we will still decide like if you wanna go or you wanna be there or not. So that was my first exit from my house. This is, there's a word that you will know and I know, but American Zaba, that is such a filmy thing to do. That is, and I love. Brown people are just film me like that is, you are so true. Are it's, it's he and I I can imagine how he was feeling. Yeah. I'm I'm not saying it was, it was, was probably he felt very genuinely. Yeah. He was like, oh no, but my daughter really wants to go. Yeah. He had that. But that is to anyone watching, it's Yeah. It literally is the word. It is like acting like you are in a movie. Right? Yeah. And it is a very popular term, but, um, yeah, because that is like, that's like straight up like DVLJ. Yeah. Yeah. See, like you, uh, I mean, my parents used to watch a lot of B Bollywood movies. Yeah. For sure. So mm-hmm. I mean, we all grew up. No, but it's, it's in our, it's, it's deeper. I think it's like everyone I knew growing up, including I'm very filmy. Mm. Like, I, you can't remove it. It's, it's not like we're not able to separate, like Yeah. Well anyway, this is the whole thing. Yeah. So you get to Lahore. Uh, tell me about the process of starting to work on, uh, and this is where I'll just insert myself into this. Yeah. Uh, where when I first became aware of your work. Yeah. Uh. Uh, uh, with Mark Hore, your, your first company. Right. And I was living in Germany. Mm-hmm. Working for a German coffee company, and it was an office full of Germans and then me. Mm-hmm. And they would upset, they wanted to launch a Kickstarter campaign, and they would obsess, uh, all the time. They would be looking at like, other Kickstarter campaigns that were doing well, and they would keep watching this video mm-hmm. For Mar horror. Mm-hmm. And they'd be like, oh, we, we should really, like, look at, look at how they're doing this. Wow. And look at how they're doing that. And I, I, there was, it was also weird for me to watch it as, you know, the only Indian person there to like, watch that. But I, that, that was the first moment that I became aware was the Mar who, uh, kickstart campaign. But tell me everything that happened between you getting to Lahore mm-hmm. And then you launching Markhor. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, launching that Markhor Kickstart campaign. Like what was that, what happened in the middle there? So, uh, of course this, uh, you know, when I look back, it's now. It's been more than 10 years. So this story is really, really long, but I'll just talk in pieces. Mm-hmm. Um, so when I came to Lahar, I got that job and I started doing that job, uh, from nine until 2:00 PM And then I was taking a graphic designing course because I wanted to also enhance my skills at the same time, uh, Vacasa and I met, we used to go to FC College Library. Hmm. What do you call it? Like Foreman Christian College. Yeah. Foreman Christian College. Yeah. Um, so we used to go to the computer lab in order to just like work on some kind of idea where we can help other businesses and, um, nonprofit to how they can use social media, how they can make website, how they can tell their story. What year would this have been? It was 2009. Okay. So yeah. So you were early. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, somehow that idea was not going anywhere, but then, uh, we met with a group of craftsmen who were making. Handmade shoes mm-hmm. In 2010, and then earlier we thought like, Hey, why don't we make their website, you know, the mm-hmm. We read a story of Zappos, so we thought like, oh, it'll be really cool bringing their shoes online and we can do a really good story and all of that. They never believed on that idea. There was like, you guys are crazy and, you know, the, uh, the honor of that, uh, unit, uh, he said, you guys are young. You have your whole life in front of you. Why don't you go and find something meaningful? Yeah. What, what you guys are doing. Like, why you want us to be on the, uh, on internet? People always buy shoes when they try on. Yeah. They don't buy shoes online, so. Somehow that idea was there when I visited that, you know, there were like five people working on the floor making shoes. I was very fascinated. I never saw a shoes made by hand. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like completely. And I was like, this is so amazing. Like, this is itself, you know, you can show the art you, it, it's itself a story. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we said that, Hey, why don't we, you know, we start something together. He said, okay, in order to start, you have to, we, we all three can come together. You will bring 25,000. I'll bring 25,000 rupees and CiDRA will bring 25,000. He brought, because of course he was doing the business, we never been able to bring that much money. Oh, wow.'cause we were like living in all over the place in la. So, um, then we applied in a grant, which was started by Google, uh, and they gave Grant to Pakistan. Um, uh. Uh, software House Association. Mm-hmm. And they said they selected four ideas. And one of the ideas, uh, they selected, um, Marjo at the time, it was hometown, and they gave us money, 8,000 US dollar to start the idea, which they did not give us all at once. Mm-hmm. They gave us the first 25. That must have been so much money. Oh my God. So much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It, we thought it solved our problem or whatever. Yeah. We thought like we, we made it, honestly. Yeah. But the, the real challenge was that it took us so much time to get the whole money from them. Mm-hmm. Because somehow, like they wanted to be a gatekeeper. Yeah. And it was the first time I realized that you can control someone by giving them money and you can control someone by not giving them money. That is a really incredible idea. So I was like, oh my God. Like they are literally controlling because they had no idea that we were living in, in hostels. Mm-hmm. Uh, our parents, they don't approve this idea of us starting the business. And then, you know, this money is so important for us. Mm-hmm. Not only like for, for us to survive during that time, but also like build something out of that, the promise that we had that in, in that application. So that's how we started Marco. Then we, we said that, oh, we are gonna do, you know, Kickstarter campaign. We were hearing about that a lot, and we long, we were thinking about that idea and then one day we, and we were making little bit progress and we still had no idea when we are gonna, you know, launch it and then mm-hmm. We went one day and we just said, we are launching our Kickstarter campaign by this day. Mm-hmm. Now, you know, you have to meet that promise. Yeah. So we started working backward from there, and we launched our Kickstarter campaign. It was really, really successful. Like we raised 107,000 US dollar Wow. For the first time, like in Pakistan, that much money. Oh my God. Like had you ever heard of anyone in your generation having a business that big at that point? No. No. In my entire family, everybody was teacher. Yeah. In the Kas family, you know, is mom was teacher, so mm-hmm. And, and other people were farmers and Yeah. So teaching or farming, those two things. Wow. And then, um, what I, I'll tell you what, what the Mar Hore did for me. Mm-hmm. Um, I, it was the first time that. I saw, you know, growing up in that part of the world, you're around so much incredible craftsmanship. Yeah. I mean, you can throw a rock anywhere in Delhi or Lahore. Yeah. And you'll hit a craftsman doing something that his family's done for like 40 generations. Right? Yeah. There'll be like, literally things that you can't even imagine. They, they, they're like ivory craftsman in India who just, all they do is carve ivory and make these incredibly intricate structures. Like they'll make like a Dodge male or something. Right. And that's just one thing. And they've, again, they've done it for, you know, so many generations and I, but growing up there, you almost, it's just in the water. Exactly. You don't even think about it, right? No. And then it was the first time,'cause people have to understand the, the time period here that I saw somebody take that. And tell that story well in a respectful way to a, uh, to an audience outside. Mm-hmm. And I, it was, and now it's very common. Now it's like there's, now you can't find a product that hasn't been converted into a D two C brand over here, craftmanship. But at the time, I, I think it was very unique. I think you guys were really pioneers in that. Yeah. The only companies. Mm-hmm. Sorry. The only companies who were talking about craftsmanship were Swiss watch Yes. Companies. Yeah. Um, and they were doing an incredibly brilliant storytelling around it. I think that was also a really big part of it, that like, it was only considered craftsmanship if it came from one part of the world. Mm. You know, it was not considered, and to me, like there's no way in which you can describe incredible craftsmanship that wouldn't include the, the leather workers of la Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. Like, it's, it's everything that you would, you would look for, but that's just not, we weren't trained to look at Yeah. That way. I, I, I have one question, which I, I, I don't know, maybe someone have thought about this so. I went to a museum here in New York, uh, I think MoMA, I saw one of, um, you know, those, um, beautiful, uh, doors. Mm-hmm. Which actually I saw in my hometown many, many times. Yeah. As a piece of art. Mm-hmm. And we call over there like a kind of a thing that we use most of the time, and then also craftsmanship. But here they were calling it art. Yeah. So sometime I wondered like, you know. What kind of words we should use in order to give a, a bigger value to something Yeah. That we deserve. Like when you say something is a piece of art, somehow, like the mm-hmm. Value get increased. Yeah. When you say craftmanship, you say, ah, like a, like a beautiful small scale project. Something, right? Yeah. That, that is such a good point. Uh, because also I don't wanna act like the, the reason we don't value craftsmanship Yeah. In, in our part of the world is because of people from the outside. Mm-hmm. No, we don't value it ourselves. Like I true the jeans I'm wearing right now. True. Yeah. These were, uh, custom made mm-hmm. By Taylor in, in Delhi, right? Mm-hmm. And when he was making'em at the end, he said, uh, to me in Hindi, but he asked, uh, oh, do you want me to put like a Levi's sticker on it? And I said, uh, what do you, I don't understand. And he was like, no, no, no. Like, you know, a lot of times people come in Yeah. And they want like a Levi's, like a fake Levi's. Like he was asking me if I wanted like a, this to be a counterfeit pair. And, and I remember thinking. This is a real problem. Yeah.'cause in America there's the coolest thing you could have are custom made jeans. Yeah. But in India he was, he would've charged a little bit extra to make it look like a pair of Levi's. Yeah. Like if he, if if he, he would say like, Hey, can I sign on your jeans? Yeah. Right. That in America that would be incredible. Yeah. But over here. Yeah. But, so, but back to, back to you and back to Marco. Um, so we zoom out of for a second. So you do this Kickstarter a hundred and how much? 107,000. You started a hundred. I like, yeah, I like that you remember the exact number.$107,000. And um, how much after that, or what was the process of going from that to coming to America, going to San Francisco, going to yc. Tell me. Yeah, tell me about that warm intro is brought to you by Wefunder. Quick story. So in early 2020, my company and I were working towards this really big launch and we put every dollar we had in the bank and every person on the team towards working on this launch. Then we launched two weeks before the entire world shut down. All of a sudden, our launch was worth nothing. VCs weren't writing checks, angels weren't writing checks. I was convinced that we were gonna go outta business and all this work we'd done. Years of work was gonna be worth nothing. And in that moment, we came up with an idea. We decided to raise a community round. We sent an email out to all of our customers saying, Hey, if you like what we're doing, become an investor. Own a part of this. Within two hours, we raised enough money not just to survive the pandemic, but to thrive as a business. Even today, five years later, none of that would've been possible without our community. And frankly, none of that would've been possible without Wefunder. See, Wefunder created the community round. Founder created a way for people who believe in you, your customers, your clients, to actually invest in you to be part of your journey. I tell every single founder I know that cares about community to go raise a community founder. If you care about your customer, the greatest thing you could do is to let them invest in your business. Go to wefunder.com/join to check it out. Yeah. So I think, um, one thing which I just wanna say that Kickstarter campaign particularly, you know, you get really excited that mm-hmm. Oh, like you raised this much money. Mm-hmm. And I, we were, we were really, really excited, but then it was time to deliver the product. Yeah. And there was so many issues because we never produced shoes at that scale. And then we, I think this was the first time when we were doing business like that. So I think product margins were not, uh, clearly thought. And then, um, so when we, when it was time for shipping, we. Face so many supply chain issues. Mm-hmm. So anyways, we fixed that. That's another story. But, uh, I almost had a nervous back breakdown. Wow. For the very first time in my business. At the time you were the operations person, right? I was working on the operation product and making sure that we shipped the shoes out, and then, uh, we applied in Y Combinator. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we applied in YY Combinator in 2012 and this was just an idea. And we were thinking about, wow, maybe we should do something with craftsman's. And by this time, we are now in 2015. Yes. We did a Kickstarter in 2014. So, um, we applied at the time and we got rejected of course. Mm-hmm. And when we, um, did Kickstarter campaign, uh, somehow we thought we should actually apply in NY Combinator. And we've, there was one question where they said like, have you applied before? If you have how much progress you have made now we have made so much progress. Mm-hmm. And somehow they are now, we were also thinking about that we can actually take the idea further. Now we have run this first pilot project. We know like how you can build a product, do a storytelling, and then really like sell, uh, to, uh, an international audience. We can actually build a platform. Mm-hmm. More like an at say of South Asia where you know, people can also, other people can come and they can start selling. So we applied with that bigger goal in Y Combinator we got selected and first Pakistani company there. Amazing first Pakistani's company to be selected to. Yeah. And then the other interesting thing was my other co-founder, AKAs, his Visa, got uh, accepted. And somehow my visa got rejected. Oh my. Which was crazy. And I couldn't attend the first class. Yeah. Um, but then later on, Michael Sebel, he wrote a letter and then someone from Pakistan wrote a letter to the Embassy. Embassy. And then that's how I got my visa. Mm-hmm. And um, I came, I came, uh, to YC to attend the first class. And I had the second nervous breakdown at the time because I, you know, like it's, at the time I was not really good at speaking in English. Mm-hmm. My English was not good. I was good in writing because. By the time you, you learn with the English they teach us. Oh my God. Yeah. The most useless. They teach you how to write a, they'll teach you how to like, write a formal correspondence. Yeah. To like the respected, sir, the, the, the chief minister of your state. Exactly. But they won't teach you how to like, have a conversation, how to order coffee. No. So, so I was, um, honestly, like in my mind, I was mostly, like, when I was having conversation with other people, I was mostly translating mm-hmm. From DU to English before I say. And there was a, there was a lag, like a very uncomfortable lag that where people were like, looking at my face and my lips and I was like, did, did you feel like buffering? And I was like, I, I don't know how I can say. And I, and all, and those people somehow, like in YC it feels like that everyone is so accomplished. Mm-hmm. And actually everyone's profile is also. Very, um, I think really like when you, those are those kind of people, like if you are an entrepreneur journey, then you would like to meet with them and or talk to them. Yeah. So very impressive profile. So every time I was having conversation, I was like, I'm wasting their time. Mm-hmm. I'm wasting their time. I don't know. I need to go back and practice what I wanna say. So a lot of like, it was like internal conversation over and over again. Like negative, negative conversation over and over again. And on top of that, you know, everyone in Pakistan. They were celebrating. Oh, first company. Yeah, they did Citizen. Were they writing articles and everything? Yeah. Like they also like did first Kickstarter campaign. It was successful. These are our, whatever, like, you know, heroes or whatever. And here me sitting in, in Y Combinator, what the hell I'm doing here? You're just having a nervous breakdown. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I'm the biggest fraud in the world. Like what I'm doing. When you have a negative conversation, there is, there is no break. It's like infinite. It's, it's, yeah. It's, you're, yeah. It, it's the, the tape is stuck and all you can do is have video. Yeah, exactly. And then you get to a point where you are even, you know, using those words that. Probably when your parents, they were hitting you, they used, so I was even, you know, calling myself, I don't know, whatever. So I, it was really, really bad for me, honestly, like throughout that time, the experience was great. Even YC founders, they were really excited because they never saw like that type of story. And a lot of them bought our shoes from Kickstarter. So, um, and then one friend, she gave me this, a really, uh, interesting tip. She said, like, I understand that you know, you are an immigrant founder and of course you are learning this new language and culture. She said, maybe when you have conversation with other people, just tell them, Hey, my English is not that good. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna tell, I'm gonna say something, but if, if, if this does not make any sense to you, please ask me again. That's a great tip. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, that gives me like, that kind of like offload something out of my chest that, oh, like this is, yeah, I should not be. Ashamed of, I should not be afraid of. I love that. That that was, uh, my grandfather, uh, the one I was mentioning earlier, he was the first person that I saw.'cause you know, a lot of old people, as they get older, they can't hear, but they sort of just act like they can hear. Yeah. And so they'll just miss the information. And my grandfather would interrupt everything to be like, I didn't hear you. And he would make you, and he would say it in Hindi. Of course. Yeah. But he would make you say it again and again. Yeah. Until he heard you. Yeah. And I always thought that was, it made it possible to still have a conversation with him. Yeah.'cause then I don't mind repeating myself. Yeah. But it was, I think people are so nervous all the time. Especially immigrants. Yeah. Yeah. About how, uh, about making sure that it comes across that everything's normal. Yeah. That they kind of miss the point of like, no, it's, the point is to communicate. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But, um, um, this thing which your, which your, uh, grandfather said, um, this happened during yc mm-hmm. Demo day practice that happens. Yeah. So Waka was on the stage and we, we wrote like the whole. Presentation and everything. And he was at this stage and now he's presenting to yc, um, partners. And every time he says a word, they would say, we don't understand you. Stop, stop, stop. We don't understand you. Yeah. Say it again. And very, very slow. Wow. And now the guy was like, almost shaking, oh my god. On this stage because, you know, like, I don't know, there is something over there. Like it feels that you are exposed. Right. But he was, he was also very persistent. He was trying really hard. So yeah, it's, sorry, that just reminded me of my YC practice. I went up on stage and I start talking, and from the back, Michael, Michael Sibbel yells, um, I can't hear you speak louder. And so I started speaking louder and then like, there's like a few minutes of pause and then a girl from the back who was in my batch goes, you sound angry, can you please? The only way I knew to be louder was to just yell. But, uh, but okay, so you, you go through yc, you, you get through all of this. Yeah. Um, and. As I understand it, you didn't find success right away, right? No. The day was a long, uh, I don't know about how long, but there was a meaningful period of struggle there. Yeah. Um, tell me about that. What were the sort of the, the things you had to do to actually get to a successful company? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, first I, I already told you that the, the idea of like, am I the right fit for the environment? Mm-hmm. You know, that was really big one. Uh, kind of a very big mental barrier. Um, the second was, which is actually dealing with the reality of the business. Yeah. Um, so even though we were, we were trying to build more like a tech platform, we. Uh, were not being able to like build the product because there was payment gateway shoes, something going on in supply chain with the existing business mm-hmm. Where money is coming from, which is basically selling shoes. Uh, because now both founders are here. Mm-hmm. We have very small team sitting in Pakistan. And then, um, uh, we were not being able to raise any investment and you know, it was also not only a heartbreaking from a perspective of that Oh, like, you know, raising fund somehow when you are in a demo day, you feel like that this is your entire world. This is the entire picture. Yeah. And if it, if it was not happening, you were some kind of like feeling, uh, failure or like shame or something, you know, which was kind of like putting you down. So, and the other thing I think in our mind, we were kind of during that last like one and a half year, we were. Very much celebrated as a really good founder entrepreneur on the internet in Pakistan. Mm-hmm. And now we have not been able to raise a single money. Yeah. So, you know, the problem with success is that, um, it makes you feel like you have to be successful. Exactly. And, and, and not just like you started feeling, but everyone you feel, I don't know if everyone does that or not, but it feels to you that everyone is watching every step of you. Yeah. Which is not true. Right? Yeah. And, uh, so, so I think it was really hard for both of us, for Wika and for me, and. And then we started writing. Um, actually we met with Paul Graham during that time. He said, what you guys are building? We told him this. He said, have you ever met with your customers? Hmm. Uh, looks like that people really loved your shoes and they really love what you guys were building. And we were like, we, we haven't met with our customer. Mm-hmm. We haven't talked to them what they want. And um, he asked like, you should, you should go. If I would be at your place, I'll go and meet not only your customer, I will also meet people who are buying shoes. Mm-hmm. And why they're buying it. And he said like, just focus. If don't try to like, do too many things, like if that idea of platform is not going forward'cause of some of the reason. But just figure out like what you are excited about and then just go and work on that idea. So the first step we did was we actually wrote a document and we said, I wrote that document for myself. I said like, why I am here, why like, there were chances for me to be in RA and then, um, not move from there where. Almost like 1000 person. Mm-hmm. I don't know how I came to Lahar, Laha to San Francisco, but now when I'm in San Francisco and in in Y Combinator there is, there must be some reason Yeah. Why you are here. Um, and then the second question I said that what you are really excited about, what you have built so far, what exactly you are excited about that and the answer that, um, you know, the first question is very hard, even to this day. Mm-hmm. I don't have an answer like why I am where I am mm-hmm. Right now. Um, but the second question, I, I found the, an answer that I'm really excited about building a product that people can use every day. Yeah. So the idea of even making a, a shoes that people can wear every day and it's very comfortable, very functional, that it helps them go throughout your day was very, very important for, for me. Um, and I worked very closely on the shoes even when we were starting up and all of that. Um, so, so that. Was the thing that, and then Maas, I think he wrote that he's really excited about making something for every day. Yeah. And somehow, like, we were very close in that. So then we started going to Stanford Mall, Aida's Shop, Nike, Nike, new Balance. We were just like, every weekend we will go over there and then we, if we see someone who's wearing really nice, you know mm-hmm. Uh, looks like a designer or someone like who has a good taste, we will go and ask like, what you are buying? Um, and we are doing research, uh, just to see, to, to understand people's buying behavior. And many time people would say these words, they would say, I'm buying, uh, for something that I can wear every day. Um, where I don't need to dress up, dress down. I'm buying something where I don't need to tie, untie my shoes. I'm buying something. Uh, I'm looking for something, uh, where when my, you know, I have sweat in my feet, my shoes don't smell. Mm-hmm. And it should be extremely comfortable. And that's how you know, we started writing our first document. If we need to make ideal everyday shoes, forget about we we have funding or not. That's not the point right now. Mm-hmm. It's about like if we need to make something which we duplicate about and that is making the ideal everyday shoes. What we need to do. Yeah. So that's how we started working on the product, and that's how our whole journey of starting atoms. Got it. This is, I'll inject myself into the story one more time for completely useless detail, but this is when I first met you, um, and, um, which was that I, either you or Wakas had posted in YC Bookface. Oh yeah. This is just the entire point of this story is just to show how small this world is. Yeah. Uh, had posted about your apartment in Haight Ashbury and how you were subletting a room and my co-founder and I showed up and the only reason we ended up not being roommates was because you guys didn't have a parking spot. Yeah. Otherwise we would've. But anyway, let's, let's not enough about me. Well, um, coming back to this, right, and as I understand the story, I'm gonna jump over some, some things here, but, um, I, I really like, there are a lot of things that YC says that are valuable, but I don't think that there's anything quite as valuable as. Anytime you feel afraid. Anytime you don't know what to do, anytime you feel stuck or or distracted as a founder, um, just the slow it down. Just work on your product and talk to your customers. Mm. If you just do that, if that's all you do, you will get somewhere. Yeah. And as I understand in your story, you guys started doing this and that. I remember when Adams start sort of is born and it first takes off among YC founders. Yeah. And then it kind of takes off among cell founders in general. And I know VCs were really trying to get in and then it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. I mean, at this point, have you sold, I don't know which of these numbers you're comfortable sharing, but give us a sense for how many pairs you've sold at this point to this point. Close to maybe a million. Yeah. Million pairs of shoes up. Yeah. And, uh, can you give us some of the famous names of the people that have that, especially ones that you didn't know were gonna wear it? Yeah. And then you just saw them wearing, yeah. So, uh, Serena Williams. Oh my God. Uh, also she ended up investing in Adams. Mm-hmm. Uh, through her fund. Uh, we have, uh, Johnny, I, he also sent us a handwritten note. Really? Yeah. He said that these are the most comfortable shoes he ever worn. Uh, thank you. And, um, then, uh, Shopify, CEO, of course, Alexis Hanian because mm-hmm. He was someone who supported us a lot. Very grateful for that. Um, and then we also, you know, Brad Pitt, uh, he was wearing Adam's mask everywhere. A lot of. Uh, Bollywood celebrities also wore Adam's mask, like run beer Kaur. Alia. Yeah. Oh, by the way, alia's mom. Alia, but mom, she kept buying from Adam's. Yeah. And, uh, she usually ordered like white shoes or something. This is for people that are listening that don't know. It's, I don't even know what the equivalent would be, whoever the biggest actresses right now. Yeah. Youngest, gen Z actress. Yeah. Like, it would be like, like the Sydney Sweeney of, of India or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. She's amazing. Um, that is, that's so incredible. I, uh, and I, I'm, I'm not trying to, to gloss over, like, I think one of the things that I've heard you do and seen you do really well is, you know, I'm making it sound like it's a straight line. Yeah. From, from struggling at San for mall to Serena Williams is wearing your shoes. Yeah. But I know that it's a, I mean, the graph looks like that, right? Yeah. But I do think that there's, like, it's important to be able to zoom out, right? Yeah. Uh, especially in your story. To me, it's just. I still even knowing you a little bit, I mean, this is the first time we're really sitting down and talking, but like even knowing you a little bit, it's still incredible, like where you've come from and where you're at, what you're doing. Tell me, tell me about this now. So, you know, coming a little bit to this sort of present moment, right? Um, I guess my first question would be, how happy are you day to day and how stressed are you day to day? Right now? This is the best time of my life. Okay. That makes me very happy. Yeah. This is the best time of my life going through. I think I, you know, by the time you, you go through, I always thought, I always question this, like what life would be if you don't go through like painful experiences? We don't know because all of us went through all kind of like painful, um, moments in our life. Um, I still wonder to that question, but I, I know where I am right now. That while going through all those like crazy ups and downs, every time there was something big going on in my life mm-hmm. Which was like crazy big achievement. Something low was happening at the same time. Yeah. So I always lived in a very neutral kind of a place, um, where I was not being able to, you know, either express my happiness or either express my sadness, and then at the same time it was like, uh, like I really wanna get out of there. Um, so this is the first time where I think, um, couple of things which I did. Um, first of all I started doing yoga. Mm-hmm. Um, that really helped me. I still, wherever and then I, um, I started working, um, inside me more. Mm-hmm. And I think in our culture especially, yes. You know, you and I, we talked about Sufi a lot. Like they talk about this like, you know, you read thousand books, you never read yourself. Yeah. So I think. When you say, like, reading yourself, it doesn't mean that you know, you reading yourself, uh, in all the big moments. I mean, not all the exciting moments, but also reading yourself, like how you react, like when you are angry, when you are sad, when you are happy, how you react when all of this happens at the same time, how you react. One of the thing which I'm teaching my daughter, um, to share with me how she feels in that moment. So when she say I'm very happy, I say like, how you are feeling? Mm-hmm. How this, uh, feeling of happiness, you know, is going through your body. And then there are times where she says like, I'm feeling great. I'm feeling awesome. I'm feeling like I wanna jump. I'm, uh, and then when she's going through, uh, some hard time or whatever, in her own way, she would say, I'm sad. I'm very angry and I wanna cry a lot. Mm-hmm. And I want you to fix this problem for me. Yeah. So, you know, like, uh, what I'm trying to say is like, probably my life in terms of the outcome. Maybe I'm in some kind of loop still. Mm-hmm.'cause we all are. But the most important thing is that now I somehow like, connect with myself in a way that I'm constantly watching myself inside. Like how I'm reacting, what I want, what I'm looking for. And then some. And I think the biggest thing which I started doing was, which I learned very, very late. I hope I knew that manifestation. Mm-hmm. So the thing which I learned is, um, and I think a lot of people talk about like, you know, quantum field or you know, those kind of ideas, but for sure, I know this is something I have done myself. If you wanna be happy, just imagine you are happy. Mm-hmm. And honestly. If you practice this more and more and more, you will start feeling it. So every day when I woke up, I just say like, I have the, um, best life. I'm healthy. My daughter is healthy, I have the best team. I have money in the bank. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm, uh, my company's making sales. We are making great progress. So somehow I think all of those are helping me a lot in my happiness. That's beautiful. It makes me very happy that you're, that you're doing so well. I, um, a couple things I wanna call out in there. I have, I have two questions for you to end this, but the first thing I, I do want to call out that, that's so noteworthy is like, you know, for you to have gone from, you know, where you started, the circumstances you started, and to be where you are, to still feel at times, right. That you haven't done enough, that things aren't going well. Yeah, that is, I mean, none of us are safe. Yeah. If, if you are, you know, if you can feel like a failure at times. Yeah. That's, I mean, what, what hope is there for any of us? Right. Uh, that that's the the first thing I also, I actually think it's really funny'cause you, you say a couple times because say, you know, I was wondering why am I here? Yeah. CiDRA, you're here'cause you're brilliant. Like you're, no, I mean truly like it's, I hope I can get, I, I can add a value also. Mm-hmm. At this, at the same amount I am getting value. You know what I mean? Like, you are ra you Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, there are a million pairs, so there are million people walking around. Yeah. Right. I mean that then that's just one example, but the broader effect that you've had on the c even people like me that were just sort of on the outside, just other founders. Um, and then that's not even mentioning the. The impact you've had back in, in the horror. Right. Um, I'm not gonna make you go into that story. I think if anybody's interested, they should go and read The Humans of New York thing. Which, I mean that alone, how many pairs did you sell from that story? Yeah, so we did, uh, I think more than 20,000 pair. We sold, we did$3 million sales in three days. Oh my God. Yeah. Shout out to humans in New York. Yeah. He, he's a brilliant guy, by the way. Oh, incredible. Um, he was another one of these pioneers that he started a type of storytelling that didn't exist before that. Oh yeah. I met him two days ago and I asked him, he, he launched his book. Mm-hmm. So I asked him like, Hey, can you sign some books for Adams community? And then he said, I think you want to get one book signed for you. And I was like, what You wanna write? And he said, um, you can sail. He wrote like, Sidra, you can sail any boat. Wow. Um, actually, so this is relevant to the second to last question I have for you. Um, our text, our chat. On iMessage is mostly just every three to four months. I'll send you like a Sufi video that I'll see on Instagram. Um, do you have, and it's okay if you can't think of one right now, but do you have either a Sufi line or a Sufi, uh, book or a poem or just a, a Sufi poet that you go back to A lot. I just want to shout out like some 17th century poet. Yeah. No, I mean, um, honestly, I I, I think we always talk about Lesha. Mm-hmm. He's, he's a Punjabi poet, right? Yeah. Um, he wrote a lot of things that whenever you go back and, and, uh, you see, uh, you always say like, oh my God. Like, I wish I knew that. Depth. Mm-hmm. So even what, you know, I just quoted like, go, you read thousand books, but you never read yourself. This is something he said several times. And I think even, you know, you can say this over and over again, but you still don't understand the depth of it. Yeah. Like we, now we are talking about that everything is like a bigger consciousness. We, we all are connected with that consciousness, right? And we, we all are connected, right? Uh, not with that, you know, the larger consciousness that exists, uh, for this entire universe. But when I, when I see like, hey, how I can connect, it just, it goes through me, right? Yeah. There is no other way that I can connect with other people if I am not going through me. So, um, I think that one, and, and, um, you know, the, the response he, he gave to people who said, uh, I'm, I'm not gonna quote it, right, when somebody said that your Lela is like, have a black skin. Mm-hmm. And, uh, he said like, you know, the writing of Koran is in black. Mm-hmm. And he said, like, you, you, you, you don't have an eye to see. Mm-hmm. It's not her skin. It's, you don't have an eye to see, uh, if there are two things that I can tell people to do in this podcast, it is number one, go buy a pair of Adam shoes. Your, your feet will thank you. And then go read, uh, some boha. Yes. There are enough translations out there. You, you just start with Instagram reels. Just look up Boha. Yeah. On it will genuinely change the way you think about yourself. Yeah. And the way you think about. And I will continue to send you reels. Um, the last question I have for you Ra, is, um, you know, we started off, um, with me asking you to describe your mom. It's 20, 30 years from now when my son is interviewing your daughter. Um, and, you know, he asks her the same question or the other way around or the other way around. But for the purposes of this question, my son asked your daughter to describe her mother, um, I guess what, what do you think she'll say? What do, what do you hope she'll say? You can answer either one. Um, I think the only thing, um, I hope she says that, um, I know like she's gonna say like, my. My mom, she's a great mom. And by the way, she, this is so crazy. Like even to this day, whenever I'm sitting in silence, she would come and she, she would say, mommy, you are doing great. I don't know how she learned that, but she says that. So I'm for sure knows that she would say that. Um, but I think, uh, one thing which I want my daughter to say about me is that my mom was also a good human being. And I think this is very important because I feel like that somehow we, we do something for our people, our, you know, our community. There is a way we, we keep doing that. Even it, it's apparent or not. Um, but like thinking about larger, you know, humanity, even now I'm thinking about environment too. Mm-hmm. I think that's another big thing that is coming up. We are not paying attention. There is a lot of conversation. So how we are, you know, doing things to. To protect this beautiful earth. Mm-hmm. For, for us, for our children, for humanity in future. So I, I don't, I have a lot of ideas right now. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I have, I have certain goals, like I wanna do this, and then after this I wanna do this and do that. So in that realm, I, this sum is like, when my daughter see me doing all of those things, she would say like, Hey, she was a great human being. That's a beautiful place.