Chai: 0:00

So this is our 10th and final episode of the first season. And if you've been listening from the beginning, you know that for our very first episode we had on a political candidate. What you might not know is the moments after we released that episode, our inbox got flooded. We got about 120 furious emails from people who just could not believe that we were having on somebody so liberal as they call them. And I would be willing to bet that as you're listening to this, as you're watching this, our inbox is currently getting flooded, but this time by people on the other side who can't believe that we're having on somebody so conservative, as I'm sure they'll call him. And I've been thinking a lot about these people, the kind of people to send these emails. To me, the most interesting thing about them is the fact that they all email within the first few minutes. For a podcast that is sometimes two hours long. I think that tells you a lot about a person because for everything they disagree on, the people they emailed then and the people that are emailing now, they all seem to agree that there is no point in having a conversation anymore. I'm sure these are good people, they're concerned citizens, but one thing they're not is kind and curious towards people they disagree with. Even when those people affect their own lives. And if there's any point to anything that I've done here in this season, it is to try to be more kind and curious and have more open conversations with the people that affect all of our lives. That is why I wanted to have on Congressman Mike Lawler. Congressman Lawler is considered one of the most bipartisan members of Congress today. He is 39 years old and he is a republican. From deep blue, New York. The last time that the district that he currently holds voted for a Republican was the year that he was born. And the reason that he's been able to pull that off is the same reason that he's now the rarest breed of Congress person. There is a true, genuine bipartisan. The reason is that Congressman Lawler understands the job of politics, and frankly, the job you have in life to be talking to people, finding common ground, making progress. He understands that nobody's perfect, nothing is pure, but if you just talk to people, you might be able to make it better. In the words of John Cameron, Kindness is the new punk. And with that I bring you Congressman Mike Lawler. This is warm intro. Congressman Lawler, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thanks

Speaker 2: 3:00

for having

Chai: 3:00

me. I wanna start with this. So you were born and raised, not too far from here. Mm-hmm. We're recording this in Manhattan. When you were growing up, how do you understand the, the politics of sort of the area that you were growing up? What, what did you, yeah. Looking back now, what is your understanding of the, the people around you? What, how did they think politically?

Speaker 2: 3:18

My, my community growing up was very much bipartisan, heavily democrat by enrollment, but, has elected Republicans for a very long time on a local level. For a long time Ben Gilman, a Republican, was the representative in Congress 30 years. Mm-hmm. And then, you had a steady stream of Democrats for about 20 years or so, and now, I'm the first Republican representing parts of my district and in 20 years. So it's, it's very much a, a, a purple area. People are not. Hyper partisan. 50% of households in my district have a cop, a firefighter, or a veteran living in the household. 50%. 50%, 50% of adults in my district have a college degree or higher. So it's very educated. Mm-hmm. And affluent. Mm-hmm. Yet blue collar, working class. It's diverse. 19% of my district is Latino. Hmm. I have the second largest Haitian diaspora in the country per capita. Wow. I have the largest Irish per capita in the country. Of which you are one. I'm half Irish, half Italian, so, it's a very it's Catholic, it's Jewish. It's, it's got a, a good mix of folks and, perspectives. And so it's always been, I think in, in the area I grew up, it was never a, a hyper partisan community, but you know. Living 30, miles away from New York City, nine 11, definitely mm-hmm. Shaped a lot of the, the politics of the area and had a tremendous impact on the community. A lot of, folks died on nine 11. Mm-hmm. Family's impacted a lot of first responders still dying, still suffering through nine 11 related illnesses through today. Yeah. So that has an impact I think, on the perspective of the community. Certainly.

Chai: 5:14

If we were to zoom in a little bit on your family specifically.

Speaker 2: 5:18

Mm-hmm.

Chai: 5:18

How much did y'all talk about politics around the dinner table? And in so far as you did, what, what do you think your parents' politics were growing up?

Speaker 2: 5:25

Yeah. My parents were never overly political. It wasn't like every night at dinner we were talking. Politics or, or news of the day per se. Mm-hmm. But they were engaged. They always voted, they always, were aware of what was going on. When I would ask questions, they would, explain they were both republicans but not, fire breathing, mm-hmm. But I think, as, as time went on as I got into high school and, my fifth day of freshman year was nine 11. Wow. That changed kind of the, the dynamics a little bit. Everybody was more acutely aware of what was going on or decisions that were being made in Washington. I got very interested in the 2004 presidential elections. I was turning 18 just before the election, so I was able to vote. And so when I went to register, I was. Deciding, whether to register as a Democrat or a Republican. Mm-hmm. I ultimately registered as a Republican, not because of my parents, but ultimately that's the, the decision I made. And then as I went into college, I got way more interested in, in politics. I ended up interning for John McCain, and so then mm-hmm. The, the kind of political discussions became more frequent as I, yeah. As I moved into my career

Chai: 6:48

before nine 11. Before that sort of enters the, the, the universe, what did you want to do with your life? What did you want to be when you grew up as a kid? And then after that happens, was that sort of a pivot point where you knew that you wanted to be in politics?

Speaker 2: 7:01

So, I love sports. My, my dad and my brother and I used to watch. Sports pretty religiously. Mm-hmm. Baseball, we're big Yankees fans. Yeah. Obviously the, the mid to late nineties were a good time to be Yankees fans. Certainly. And we love hockey. So, the, the 93 94 Rangers team. So I was I actually wanted to be a sports broadcaster, really. That was my you have the choice. That was kind of my, my passion. I, I wanted to go to school to be a sports broadcaster. Sam Rosen, the, the Rangers announcer he lives in, in my district. Obviously with the Yankees, you had Phil Rizzuto Yeah. At the, at the time, along with and then Michael K came along and certainly John Sterling on radio. So I, I was very intrigued by being a, a sports announcer. And then as I kind of. Was going through school, I, I kind of became a little bit more interested in potentially going to law school mm-hmm. And becoming a lawyer. I, I like to debate. I like to argue. I like to be able to make my case if you will. And so I was very interested in that. And I wanted to go to college for accounting and finance. I wanted a business background. Mm-hmm. So that's what I ultimately did. And I intended to go to law school. And, along the way, I, I interned for McCain. I then got very interested in politics. I went to work for the state Republican party in New York. Mm-hmm. Upon graduation and, really just got kind of hooked on, on Yeah. Government, politics and, and what you could actually do to improve people's lives. My dad had gotten pretty sick at the time, and, and so I was living at home helping my family and, he ultimately passed away and, and sorry, I just ultimately never, never pursued law school. Yeah. And really, made the decision to kind of stay in, in politics and government and I ended up creating my own business being a consultant lobbyist and then ultimately decided to run myself. But that when I look back to the things I thought I might do Yeah. Versus where I ended up, I mean different. And and that's why to me, you always have to be open to. The journey. Mm-hmm. And seeing where it takes you as opposed to trying to, oh, I'm going to be this, this, and this. I mean, you can do that and, and get there, but I think part of it really is being willing to take opportunities as they come and, and always being willing to eng take risk. Mm-hmm. And you never know where it, where it leads.

Chai: 9:42

That makes me think of a lot of things, but one thing I have this, how important was that moment for you? Because it feels like it's at the intersection of so many of the things you were into at the time when President Bush through the first pitch.

Speaker 2: 9:53

Yeah.

Chai: 9:54

I still think it's one of the most, whatever you think of the man. Yeah. One of the greatest moments in presidential history.'cause he threw a fantastic, I mean, it's the

Speaker 2: 10:03

thousand percent

Chai: 10:04

that, and President Carter, which who threw it in like his mid eighties. Right. And again, killer. But that. But I actually, one thing that reminds me of is I have this friend whose mom's a political organizer. She's a democrat, like, blue dog. Right. Forever and ever. And she used to always say, but she's also Southern, so she's very right. Sort of. She would never insult somebody directly. She used to always say about President Bush. I shouldn't just say, bless your heart. Yeah, exactly. So she would always say about President Bush, bless his heart he would've made a great commissioner of the MLP.

Speaker 2: 10:30

Well, he did own the Texas Rangers at one point. But I, I I love moments like that. Yeah. I think it speaks to America. It speaks to who we are as a country that, there are a lot of things that can unify us. Mm-hmm. There are a lot of things that can make people smile. And that was a, a moment of, of real difficulty for America, but especially for New York. Yeah. And I remember watching that World series so vividly and. It was a, it was just a wonderful moment. Mm-hmm. In New York, in the immediate aftermath of nine 11. I mean, you're literally talking a month plus later. Yeah. Heading in the playoffs and then you get to, to November by the time that the, the, that World Series ended. But it was really a remarkable moment to watch him come out Yeah. Bulletproof vest, on the mound and, and just throw a, a dart of a strike. Yeah. And I, I met with him back in December of 2023. Mm. He was the one person in politics I hadn't met that I wanted to meet. Mm-hmm. And, and in large measure, because he defined a, a good period of my life of and kind of coming of age and getting interested in, in politics and, first of all, he is exceptionally funny. Yeah, he is. He's incredible, extremely charming and classy. Yeah. He has class. Mm-hmm. And I think, the fact is, post presidency, he is always, and in much the same way as father did, they conducted themselves with integrity in the in class. Incredible. Right. And, it was a great opportunity. We sat down for about an hour in his office. It was just the two of us, and I asked him, I said, what's. What's your favorite memory as president? What do you mm-hmm. What do you remember, the most? And he, and he was very funny, but he said in, in some in substance, he said, when I'm 95 and I'm sitting in a wheelchair and I'm drooling down my face, he's like, I'll always remember I threw that motherfucking strike right down in the middle of the plate. And and it was great. It was great. But it's that was certainly a, a great moment.

Chai: 12:38

It seems like he was your guy I mean, I'll, I'll share my, my personal story. Mm-hmm. Not, not that it matters, but I had just moved to the country and I'm about, I think eight-ish years younger than you. Mm-hmm. And so it was almost exactly that moment, but in the, the Obama presidency. Right. And, this is not a political point. I just remember him doing the speech, but, skinny kid with a funny name.

Speaker 2: 12:58

Right.

Chai: 12:59

And I, I was at some point a skinny kid and still have a funny name. And it, there is this power the presidents have. And I, I had moved from a country basically no country does. Right. Does things like America does in this regard. Right. And I think there are a lot of people that think that this stuff is frivolous. That, the first strike and the, the speeches and the pardoning, the turkeys, I think it has a lot of value. Mm-hmm. I think it's, I'm glad we do it as a country. I think we should do more of it. I mean, I don't think we should put off, middle East Peace talks to do it, but I think it matters a lot. But No, but it,

Speaker 2: 13:28

it, that type of. Engagement matters. E everything can't be so serious and it can't be so, driven by what divides us or where we disagree. It's it. Mm-hmm. That's a moment that brings the whole country together. Even people who didn't vote for him probably hated his guts. Yeah. You can't not look at that and just smile because it's a great, it's a great unifying moment and it's something that, till today, everybody still talks about because it was really a powerful image. And in much the same way when he was down a few days after the towers fell on the pile and he's got a bullhorn in his hand. And people are saying, I can't hear you. And he says, but I can hear you. Yeah. And soon the rest of the world will hear all of us. And it's a powerful moment. And I think. Presidents have that ability. Mm-hmm. Elected officials writ large can do that. But presidents have that ability on the world stage to unify the country, to bring people together, to inspire people. And I think, to me, I didn't agree with every decision he made. I didn't agree with everything. Yeah. He did in his presidency, but I certainly respected him. And what I admired most and what I said to him when I met with him was, thank you. Because if you lived in New York on nine 11 mm-hmm. That was a very scary day. Yeah. It was. It was a heartbreaking day and you didn't know where we were going next. And from my vantage point, he did everything in his power to protect the country. To protect Americans, to ensure that that didn't happen ever again. And it's not an easy job. And you take a lot of criticism in, in any elected position. But he made decisions that, people can criticize and, and can, say today, oh, hindsight, 2020 shouldn't have done this, this, and this. But in that moment he did what he had to do to protect the country. And, and, as a New Yorker, I appreciate that.

Chai: 15:36

On that point, I want to, I wanna bring this back to you. So you decided to run mm-hmm. In 2020, right? Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 15:42

For state assembly.

Chai: 15:43

And he ended up winning eventually of course for Congress. You end up winning a district that, when was the last name that had a Republican?

Speaker 2: 15:51

Oh God, that was a long time. Probably at that point I'd say. 30, 40 years.

Chai: 15:58

So I, I had Chad, GBT, which is not reliable. I had Chad GBT pull the number. Yeah. And may even have been longer than that. It apparently, according to Chad GBT, the last time they'd had a Republican was in 1986. Which incidentally is the year they were born for assembly.

Speaker 2: 16:11

Yeah.

Chai: 16:11

And I think that I, I have a lot of questions about that, but specifically, why do you think your campaign was so successful? Why, how do you think because we have some political people that have watched this, like, yeah. Why do you think you were successful Yeah. In turning the district?

Speaker 2: 16:25

So, I, I chose to run in a district that I pretty much had lived my whole life in. Mm-hmm. I was born on one end of the district. I grew up in another part of the district. Then I lived for most of my childhood in, in the other end. And So. I knew the district well. Mm-hmm. I knew the people well. My family had been in Rockland County writ large for over a hundred years. So it makes a difference when you're gonna run for something that you actually know the people that you're seeking to represent and you know the community and you know the issues and you understand what drives people in their, in their vote outside of party. Yeah. And so, it's a two to one democratic district. Yeah. I was running against say, 14 year incumbent. I announced the week before COVID hit and everything, shut down pretty quickly thereafter. And I got COVID. I got COVID on March. Oh no, 20th. Oh no. And so I was in, my basement and my wife was kept bringing food to the top of the steps. How

Chai: 17:33

many days after you announced?

Speaker 2: 17:34

Oh, after I announced, probably with a week after I announced. And, and so I was, basically stuck in the basement in quarantine for 18 days. At one point I went to the hospital'cause my breathing was all labored. But I was one of the, one of the early COVID patients in New York. But as soon as I felt better and I was, out of quarantine, I was out. Yeah, and I, and I, I was a consultant at that time, but I was also serving as deputy town supervisor in my town. And so I was able to really, I wasn't worried about getting it. I got it. Yeah. So I was able to really go out there and campaign. And my opponent she had served many years in, in different capacities, but she was, at the time, 77 she was older and not in great health. Mm-hmm. And really ultimately was not out there campaigning in part because of CO, but in part mm-hmm. I don't think she was up to it. And, so it allowed me the opportunity to really engage the public and, and and I think as we've seen in recent elections, people are ready for a new generation. They're ready for younger voices. Yeah. Regardless of what. Perspective they're offering, they're ready for folks who have been here quite a while that have been part of the decision making process that in some respects has put us in the situations that we're in. They're, they're ready for change. And so I think that, I, I spoke to the issues. I went into every community. I was engaging everybody. And I built a coalition that brought democrats, republicans, independents together and brought different communities together. I have a large Orthodox Jewish community in the district that I engaged. I have an Indian community. I have a Haitian community. I went into those communities and built the coalition that you need. I had law enforcement, first responders, firefighters Building and construction trade unions. I brought everybody together. And so we won by about 2,700 votes on election day. When all the votes were counted. I outperformed, president Trump by about five points in that district. And I won, and it was it was the only Republican pickup in the state assembly that year. Mm-hmm. And so that was a a watershed moment, if you will. But it allowed me I think the opportunity to really kind of make a, a bit of a name for myself, but also have a, a voice for my district and, and really start to have a voice up in Albany in a way that positioned me well to, to run for Congress.

Chai: 20:18

Least favorite part of campaigning.

Speaker 2: 20:21

I actually love campaigning, to be honest. You really, I really do. I enjoy. Meeting people. I enjoy talking to people. I enjoy doing press and interviews and, and the back and forth that mm-hmm. Ensues. I love, I actually don't mind fundraising. Mm-hmm. But moreover, I, I enjoy people. I enjoy being out, meeting new people, engaging on issues being able to give speeches in front of, audiences answer questions. So I actually, there's nothing about campaigning that I, that I dislike. I would say the thing I dislike is a, about the entirety of is how much time away from home I have to spend. Yeah. I have a three and a half year old and a 1-year-old, so, I, there's a lot of time where I'm away both when I'm in Washington and when I'm in the district because I have to do events in the district. Mm-hmm. I have to go into communities. So, it's that is the thing that I dislike. The most, if you will, is just the amount of time away from your family. And secondarily, I'd say, especially in a job like this, in a district like mine that is competitive, your life is not your own. I don't, I don't, I don't get much time off. I don't get days off when I'm, when I am off, I'm home. I'm not going out to, with, with friends too often because you just, yeah. You don't have the time to, and it's so that's that I would say is something I, I miss kind of, you're, you're freedom a little bit, if you will, in terms of being able to just go do your thing.

Chai: 21:58

Also, your anonymity, right? Yeah. Can you really go to a dive bar in your district now and just not have people come up to you?

Speaker 2: 22:03

No. Yeah. No, I, and look, I mean, I. I don't, I don't mind if pe people want to come up, say hello, and some people come up and yell at you, and it is what it is. Does that, I mean, that's part of, that's part of the job, if you will. What

Chai: 22:17

frequency does that happen at?

Speaker 2: 22:19

Oh, since I've been in Congress, it happens often in terms of people coming up to me. Most people are very civil. Yeah. And most people are respectful. And especially if you're out with your family or some people tend to try to leave you alone. If, if I'm out at a public event, people certainly are gonna come up to me. And again, most people are are gracious and they're kind, and even if they disagree with you, they're going to do so respectfully. And then of course you get some people, that they feel it's their right or, or their want to, be rude or tell you, yeah. What they, what they think, quote unquote. And to me, that's democracy. People have that, right. I'm not, I don't get offended by that. I don't it doesn't bother me. When, when some people lose control of themselves, frankly, yeah. It kind of amuses me in a way, but I it's part of, it's part of politics.

Chai: 23:13

My. My one insight about American politics as an outsider to politics is because I remember in the first Trump term, there was that woman in Virginia A that was biking next to his motor can Right. And flipped him off. And then of course, during the President Biden term, that was Yeah. Saying F Joe Biden became, I mean, it was maybe the most popular slogan, and I thought a lot about that. And I think it might be the one, right. Oh,

Speaker 2: 23:36

you mean let, let's go Brandon. Oh, let's go Brandon. Of

Chai: 23:38

course. But the one right, that I really think 100% of Americans agree on is their right to be able to flip off the president. Yeah. I, I don't know if there's anything that has greater bipartisan support that just, of course not their president, but,

Speaker 2: 23:51

I, the unfortunate thing is, I, I think that has become more prevalent in Yeah. In recent years. I, I don't. Growing up I, that was not a thing. Yeah. And I think social media plays a big part of this because people feel so free with their words. It's easy to be a keyboard warrior and say a lot of things, when you don't have to do it to somebody's face. Yeah. But I think the, I mean, from my vantage point yeah. People have a a right to do it. I don't think it's constructive. Yeah. I don't think it actually solves anything. And I think it just further divides people on the basis of politics as opposed to the substance of issues. Mm-hmm. To me, we should be duking it out on the substance of issues. I would love to sit and debate people on the substance of issues. Yeah. Not on personal attacks. Not on Oh, because you're a Republican, therefore you're evil. Yeah. I mean. This, that's where our politics has gotten so stupid. Mm-hmm. That you people can't even have a substantive discussion without it devolving into a shit show about stupidity. That's where, to me it's just not helpful. I it may make you feel good in the moment mm-hmm. To flip off the president or to, curse out an elected official that's, out to dinner. Sure. Cool. But you're not actually solving anything

Chai: 25:21

and you're I would argue you're actively making things much harder. Right.'cause then you're dissuading more and more normal people from running.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Well, that's it. I, the big challenge is getting good people to run.

Chai: 25:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:33

Who are serious about wanting to address issues. Mm-hmm. And, and substantively want to learn and, and engage on issues. You look at a district like mine where there's 80,000 more Democrats than Republicans. Mm-hmm. Okay. My district is home to the Clintons and George Soros like it, it is not a Republican bastion. I didn't know that. But my district is filled with people who, as I said before, highly educated, blue collar working class. They care about their communities. They want to be able to, have a good paying job to provide for their families. Mm-hmm. They want their children to have a quality education. They want access to housing and healthcare, and they wanna live in a safe neighborhood. Yeah. We can argue about so many different things, but at the core, that's what most people in this country want. Mm-hmm. Certainly in my district, that's what they want. And so when you look at these challenges facing the country, to me, I. Yeah. That's why I hold town halls. I'm willing to stand there. You

Chai: 26:40

of the few people still do, and I'm

Speaker 2: 26:41

willing to stand there and take questions, but a lot of these people don't want to hear answers. Yeah. And that's, that's where I think our country has gone off the rails. It's like, let's have a serious, substantive debate on the merits of the issue. Mm-hmm. Instead of just, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, or Biden or, I mean, just, it's gotten so stupid in terms of the actual debate. Yeah. And what the press focuses on, what the parties focus on. It's not serious.

Chai: 27:14

Have you, do you remember the movie Idiocracy? Mm-hmm. Do you ever worry that we're headed in that direction?

Speaker 2: 27:20

I, I, I worry that in my, in my estimation, you have a few things that have created this, this problem. Yeah. One is social media. Yes. Which to me is a, a singular destructive force in, in American politics and, and the dialogue. At the same token, it is helpful in informing the public of mm-hmm. Things that are happening and, and, and holding elected officials accountable. Yes. You have the 24 hour news cycle and the talking head punditry that mm-hmm. It's just all about being first, being loudest as opposed to getting it right. Yeah. Which I think is problematic. And then you have a real challenge, which is that our elected class is primarily elected through. Gerrymandering. Yeah. And through picking your, constituents as opposed to the constituents picking their elected officials. Mm-hmm. And so, from that vantage point, I think it has created less competitive districts in the country, which means less people are having to focus on the middle. Yeah. They're focused on the extremes. The extremes have gotten louder and, and more hardened in their, in their points of view. And so, it creates a real challenge in terms of trying to find compromise between the parties and then term limits. I mean, Nancy Pelosi just announced she's retiring after what will be 40 years in Washington. She won 20 elections. She served 20 years as democratic leader in the house. Chuck Schumer, 50 years in elected office. He's never held a job outside of elected office. He got his law degree, he got elected to the New York State Assembly in 1974, and then Congress in 1980. Mm-hmm. Then the Senate in 19 98, 50 years is too long for anybody. Yeah. And that's so, and, and there are those on the Republican side as well, but it, to me it is, that is destructive because it's the same people arguing over the same bullshit. Yeah. And they've been around long enough that they've been able to take both sides of every, every issue. Yeah. I mean, that's, go look at what Chuck Schumer has said about shutdowns or tariffs or mm-hmm. War or any other issue. Yeah. And he's been on all, on all sides of it. Yeah, because he's been around long enough where well, they're in power, so I'm gonna be over here now. We're in power. We're over here, and, and it's just, it, it's nonstop stupidity.

Chai: 30:08

Warm intro is brought to you by Wefunder. Wefunder created this thing called the Community Round that lets you raise money directly from your community. So instead of going to VCs and rich people, angel investors, you can go straight to your friends and your family and your customers. And this is not a traditional ad read. I used Wefunder for my company three times. We ran three rounds in Wefunder. We raised over a million dollars, and I found that it completely changed how everybody felt about our business. Our customers all of a sudden didn't feel like they were just customers. They felt like they were owners in the business. They shopped with us more. They told their friends about us. My team. Felt like what we were doing was important because our community had shown up to invest in us. I tell every founder I can find to go raise a we fund around, especially for companies that care about community, there is nothing greater you can do than letting that community invest. Go to wefunder.com/join to check it out on that note. I'm gonna fast forward Yeah. A little bit in your story. You, you get elected of course, to state assembly, get elected to US House of reps you get to Washington. What was the not at a policy level or anything, what was the most surprising thing to you? Just about, just about the actual nine to five of it.

Speaker 2: 31:32

Well, it's not nine to five. Alright. What are the hours? It is, it is, I mean, I generally am, when I'm in Washington, I'm going from about 7:00 AM to 11:00 PM and I, I. Okay. Whether I'm in DC or at home, I sleep about five hours a night. It's not'cause I can't sleep, it's'cause I'm wired to sleep five hours a night and to get to work. But it is, you are constantly on the go. Now, in part, it's what you make of it. Mm-hmm. I'm in a competitive district. I gotta raise money, I gotta do press. I gotta meet with, constituents. I gotta go to events. Mm-hmm. I gotta speak. I got, I gotta legislate. I got two committees I'm on financial service, foreign affairs. So you're constantly on the move. Yeah. And I enjoy it. I what I've always loved about politics and government, from the time I started as an intern for John McCain to today, no single day has been boring. Mm-hmm. Or the same. And that to me is, enjoyable. I would, I would absolutely loathe sitting at a desk, nine to five. Mm-hmm. Day in, day out. That's just not me. I, I enjoy being out, I enjoy seeing people, I enjoy engaging on different issues, being able to solve different problems. I have a tremendous staff. I mean, we've been able to close over 7,500 constituent cases in less than three years and bring back nearly$40 million to constituents in benefits. They're due to be able to deal with a broad array of issues. I'm chair of the Middle East and North Africa subcommittee on the Foreign Affairs Committee. I'm traveling to the Middle East. I'm engaging with world leaders, with ambassadors, with the state Department, with the administration. It's substantive, serious stuff. So to me, I think part of it, I knew how busy I was as an assemblyman in the minority of the New York State Assembly. Mm-hmm. I mean, I made it a full-time job and then some, this is 10 tenfold. Yeah. And you, you're really, you go nonstop and I think my staff want to kill me sometimes because I go nonstop. But I know for as long as I am in this position, I'm going to do the job that way because Yeah. I don't know of any other way to do it. Mm-hmm. You either give it your all or don't give it at all. Yeah. And that to me, if you're going to put yourself out there, if you're going to represent your constituents, then you have a responsibility to do the job. And so I show up everywhere I engage. I love some of my democratic opponents and others attack me saying, oh, where is he? He's, I'm everywhere. And I, it's because I, I, I take the job seriously. Yeah. And I go into every community, even those that don't agree with me or haven't voted for me, I stand on stage and take questions from constituents knowing full well that many of them mm-hmm. Are there just to scream at me.

Chai: 34:30

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:30

But that's the job.

Chai: 34:32

Have you ever had anything yelled at you or even in like a more serious criticism that actually sort of you were like, eh, that's either there's some truth to that or that's kind of funny?

Speaker 2: 34:45

Well, I mean, yes. I mean, some people make you laugh with some of the things they, they put out. I mean, some of it's just so absurd. Especially some of the attack ads and things, and, if I showed you my Twitter feed, you'd just. I think I would've a seizure. Yeah. I mean, it's just like holy. But I, I will say the things that bother me are more having to do with questioning my integrity. Hmm. I have, I don't lie to people. I am very direct and blunt, probably too direct and blunt. Hmm. I tell you what's on my mind or what I think, or where I stand on an issue. Mm-hmm. I don't try to parse words. So I think when people question my integrity or somehow say that I'm, I'm lying, or that I'm saying one thing here mm-hmm. Or doing another thing there, I tell people exactly. Where I stand on something, nobody has to guess. Yeah. And so, from that standpoint, I think the personal, the, the more personal attacks about your character, about your integrity, that's, that stuff to me is, is frustrating. Only, only in so far as, as I, I am very honest and direct with people and it, it obviously that's part and parcel with politics today, but, from the standpoint of what pisses me off that,

Chai: 36:08

yeah. So you have been rated multiple times, I know, probably with the title of this episode as one of the most bipartisan members of Congress. Right. I, I've been thinking a lot about this, that word and sort of preparing for this. Mm-hmm. Well, first of all, we're having this conversation as of yesterday or as of two days. It is, this is now the longest government shutdown, right?

Speaker 2: 36:28

Mm-hmm.

Chai: 36:29

In history. We are having, also having this conversation a few days after Zoran Ramani won the mayoral race over here. It, I am fascinated by what that is, that word. I, I guess I wanna understand your relationship with that word. Firstly, is that something, this is gonna be a multi-part question. Mm-hmm. You don't have to remember all the parts. Was that a word that you were aware of that you wanted people to call you that were you sort of angling? Is that at all or is that something that sort of looking back people have called you bipartisan? That's number one. Yep. Number two. I know a lot of people, and it's kind of a corny question to even ask now, but is that even a good goal to aspire to bipartisanship or should we be aspiring to something else? Right. Yeah, those are the two parts.

Speaker 2: 37:10

So, so anybody who's ever been married understands. That you are not going to agree on everything. Yes. And you're certainly not gonna get your way on everything. And you have to find compromise if you wanna stay married. Yes. To me, if you can disagree with your spouse, if you can disagree with your parents, how in the world do you think you're going to agree with a politician on everything? Yes. So if you accept that premise, if you understand that, then why would you approach politics? From the standpoint of my way or the highway, it's gotta be a hundred percent or nothing. Mm-hmm. I am a, a fundamental believer that if I get 80% of what I want mm-hmm. That's pretty fucking good. Yeah. If I get 50% of what I want, that's still pretty good. Yeah. If I get 30% of what I want. Well, those are Hall of Fame numbers in baseball. Yeah. You're batting three, right. You're batting 300. So I, I just, to me, the mindset should be much less about my way or the highway and much more about, okay, first of all, where do we agree mm-hmm. And how do we get to a place where we can build consensus to pass something into law. Yeah. So I'm very proud of being rated the fourth most bipartisan member of Congress in the last Congress. I'm very proud of the fact that I was rated the number one most effective freshman member of Congress. Yes. That, that wasn't me saying it. It was independent arbiters, everybody's judged by the same standard, and that's what they determined. My, my view on this is it's not a bad thing, it's not a bad word. Mm-hmm. I'm a Republican. I, I, I, if I wanna be a Democrat, i'd I a Democrat. Yeah. But I'm not, I am a Republican. Probably make your life easier right. In your district. Sure. In New York. Yeah. It is not who I am. I, I believe in the principles and the values of the Republican party. Ronald Reagan was my, my favorite president in large measure because not only was he a good communicator, but he, he communicated good ideas. Mm-hmm. And, that was a, that was a line he said in his farewell address, and, and it's right. And so to me, I view it from the standpoint of, look, you have to be willing to sit down with people. You have to be willing to engage in a constructive dialogue and conversation. You have to be willing to find area of agreement and actually build consensus. If you're not willing to do that, if you're not willing to actually legislate, to build consensus for the purpose of, of better impacting the country Americans, and our communities, then why the fuck are you there? Yeah. Why are you, why would you put yourself out there to be an elected office if you're not willing to actually do that? Mm-hmm. And so to me obviously we are in a heightened political environment. I have people saying he's not really moderate, he's not really bipartisan. And I always kind of look and I go, well, if I'm not, then who the hell is who the fuck is? Because if I'm not that person certainly isn't. Mm-hmm. And, and so, I I just kind of, to me, I'm gonna continue to approach it the way I have, which is to engage in a constructive dialogue. It doesn't mean I'm not going to be sharp in my criticism when warranted. It doesn't mean I'm not going to fight for the values and the ideals that I believe in. I will and I do, but I also know that you have to know when to say yes. Yes. You have to know when to define what a win is and. Accept it. Mm-hmm. And a lot of people in politics today don't know how to define what a win is. They don't know when to say yes. And they don't know how to declare victory. And, and to me that's a big part of why so many things don't get done.

Chai: 41:21

To anyone that's sort of watching this and doesn't believe that you're truly the fourth most bipartisan person and doesn't wanna do the work to Google it. You have worked with Democrats on, I'm gonna pull up the list on climate change, on immigration come out and correct me if I'm wrong, but come out against a federal abortion ban, right? Mm-hmm. And I mean, the list goes on and on, right? These are the most, I have a lot of Democratic friends. This is the top of their sort of priority list, so, right. I think the record speaks for itself. I want to, I have two questions too, and then I can let you get home and get trip to dinner. I have two things and they're both kind of meta questions, right? Yeah. So I wanna take a step back. I, i've been thinking a lot about it. There's this great book written about President Biden. Mm-hmm. You might have heard of it. It's called The Last Politician mm-hmm. Of Franklin four. And one of the things that the book talks about, I don't care about any of the details of what was going on in the White House, but it's, it plays with the idea of what it means to be a politician. And I've been feeling a lot recently that I actually think that it's I don't take it as a bygone conclusion that the word politician itself or politician or the work of politics itself is dirty to me. I'll tell you, I wanna put out a theory, and I want to kind of get your reaction to this. To me there are sort of two jobs that a politician has, and again, understand that I'm an idiot and so all of this, please correct me, but to me, there are two jobs that a politician has, right? One job is to, just for purely logistical reasons, we can't send 340 million or however many people we have. We can't have them vote on every single issue. So we send groups of people, send one person at a time, and your job is to, right? We have, we have a

Speaker 2: 42:52

constitutional republic Exactly. To make sure that precisely communities are represented.

Chai: 42:58

And so the first job, I think is to represent the views of your community, right? Mm-hmm. And to do the best, estimate what your community wants, and then tip to sort of represent that at a national level or at whatever level. And then as the views of your community change over time to change with it. And I think that's the first part that people consider dirty, that I personally don't think is dirty is your constituents change. You should change, right? So that's, that's one thing. And then there, I think moments or,

Speaker 2: 43:22

or, or by the way, they will change you.

Chai: 43:25

That's, that's also, that is another good point. And then, then to me, there are the exceptions to that rule. Mm-hmm. Right? Which is, there are these moments where you as a congressman have access to information that I, as a guy on the street do not. Or you just have a strong conviction about something. Right. And then it's your job to not just represent the views, but to stand up there. Mm-hmm. And countless examples in American history of this to stand up there and say, you gotta just trust me on this. Yeah. Just believe me that this is the way it needs to be. And and then it's the work of politic, and then you go to the, the people and then you shake hands and you do the work of political persuasion. Right. That's how I see the job of politics as a guy on the street, is it's representing the views and to change with the views as they change. Mm-hmm. And then it is to every once in a while stand up there and be like, I know you don't agree with me, but here's the thing. Yeah. Where do you see. Firstly, what do you think of that description and also how do you see your job? Where, where does it land on that sort of spectrum?

Speaker 2: 44:22

So I think that's a fair description, especially from a legislative standpoint. Okay? Mm-hmm. The, we live in a constitutional republic. Yeah. We have 435 members of Congress, roughly representing the same number of constituents across the country. And your job is to go there on behalf of your constituents, a majority of whom elected you. Mm-hmm. And to advocate for your community. Now, there are decisions that are made that directly impact your community, and there are other decisions that are made that directly impact the country. Mm-hmm. And or a, a state, et cetera. Your job is to synthesize the information. And make a decision based on a few factors. One is the information itself. What are the facts? What does it actually say? Not what we think it is, not what we hope it is. What are the facts? Two is your own personal conviction. Mm-hmm. And, and belief. And three, and most importantly, what is the view of your constituency? Yeah. The people that you have been elected to represent. Mm-hmm. The people that have trusted you to make the decision in this Congress in particular. And so to me, you always have to weigh all that. Yeah. So when I make decisions, I don't make it based on the party position. Yeah. I make it based on, okay, well what's my personal view on this? Mm-hmm. Where do, where, just looking at the facts, what is my gut reaction? What is my view. And two, where, where's my con community, where are my constituents on this? Where do they fall? What are, what is kind of the, the, the core belief of, of the district? And sometimes you make a decision in which you put more emphasis on where the community is. Yeah. And the district. And sometimes you make a decision based more, with more emphasis on where you are on it. Mm-hmm. And you, and you balance that and you weigh it. And each, each issue, each decision is different. Because it really depends entirely on the substance of the issue, the facts surrounding it. Mm-hmm. I'll give you case in point as chair of the Middle East and North Africa subcommittee. I have very strong views on Israel, on what has happened in the Middle East writ large over many years. Yeah. And so, you weigh all of these factors and people will come and I will meet with anybody. I will talk to them about the substance of these issues. Mm-hmm. I will hear them out on it. I don't dismiss anybody. I, I give people the opportunity to, to have their voice heard. But sometimes you, you have more information or understanding of a situation and you have to be willing to make a decision. But you have to be able to articulate your decision. You have to be able to explain why you voted the way you did. I have always been able to justify any vote that I have made. Mm-hmm. And explain it even if somebody disagrees with me or I them. Be able to articulate exactly why I did what I did. Yeah.

Chai: 47:48

That's beautiful. I, I want to end with, on a bit of a personal note and then mm-hmm. Sort of get your thoughts on this. So I, a little bit of my story, nobody tuned in for this part, so you could just fast forward 15 seconds, but, I, I moved to this country when I was 17. Mm-hmm. I moved from India. I went to school here. I dropped out of college and started a company that is still going, hired quite a few people. I married to an American woman. I am patriotic towards America in a way that only an immigrant can be. Mm-hmm. Only a chosen convert can be. Mm-hmm. I feel I will fight just about anyone on on why America is the greatest place and I'm, I'm not blind to any of its sort of shortcomings. But I feel deeply, I mean, I feel about it the way that I. I do about any very important decision I've made in my life. Right. I thought about it and it's both emotional and practical for me, but I, it, I'm very, very, very patriotic. But even I, looking at, with, with my specific story, I gotta be honest, Congressman, some, sometimes I just feel like, did I, did I fuck up? Did I move to the wrong country at the wrong time? Yeah. Was this the, the wrong decision? Just looking at how things are going and how incapable we seem. Our, our leaders, no offense mm-hmm. Seem at times, right? Everyone except for you, I mean, every other member of Congress, but how, just how paralyzed we seem. Yeah. And how incapable we seem to be able to take on real pro. We're bickering about the dumbest possible shit while, we've gotta deal with China and climate change and, and all manner and nuclear war. I mean, it just, it feels like maybe I made the wrong decision at times. And my question to you is, the classic, you, once you've seen the sausage get made, you never wanna eat sausage again. You, for the last five years have watched the sausage get made. What, what in your experience in Congress has given you hope? I'm mostly, this is, I, many people have stopped watching already. This is just so I can sleep better. What gives you hope today?

Speaker 2: 49:47

So, so first, lemme say as, as an Italian, I still love sausage. So should just cut there. We're good. But look, my wife is an immigrant. Yeah. Okay. And she came to this country by herself with no family, no support and really in search of opportunity. Mm-hmm. Economically education and otherwise. And she's a citizen now, or we have two children three and a half and, and one that wouldn't have happened if she didn't make that choice. Yeah. And that wouldn't happen in most other countries in the world. Mm-hmm. For all our challenges, for all our differences, for all of our fights that oftentimes seem trivial or frustratingly stubborn. I still believe through all of that, America is still the greatest country in the world. It's the greatest force for hope, for opportunity, for freedom. And it is also the country that gives people the greatest opportunity for upward mobility. We just had an election in New York City. Mm-hmm. And there's big differences of opinion. In terms of the future of the city and, Zoran is somebody I served with in the state assembly. That's right. Yeah. We got along well. We disagreed mm-hmm. On many things. But when I look at where we are number one, think about the fact that he himself an immigrant Yeah. Who came to this country, became a US citizen in 2018, and is now going to be the mayor of New York City. Mm-hmm. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. Yeah. And I think we are at a point in history and a point in time where I think folks need to better understand the good Of America the good. That has come from America. So often we focus on the negative. So often we focus on the mistakes that have been made in history. Or where the disagreements are instead of recognizing even with all those disagreements, even with all those mistakes, even with all those challenges, Americans are still better off than 99% of the world. Yeah. And I think that's where folks have to recognize. It doesn't mean we don't constantly work to improve. It doesn't mean we don't need to fix things, but we are still in a much better place than, than most the rest of the world. And I will tell you, in my capacity as a, a member of Congress, I often get to go to naturalization ceremonies. And usually you have about a hundred people getting sworn in as American citizens. And they chose to come to this country in pursuit of the American dream. They chose to leave everything they knew behind their family, their friends, their livelihood in pursuit of coming to this country. Mm-hmm. To become an American, to participate in our democracy, to pursue whatever it is that they want to, whether it is to go to school, whether it is to own a business, whether it is to, work for a company whatever it is that they want to pursue. And they chose to do that. Name me another country where that happens. Where people from all around the world mm-hmm. Are choosing to go to. Okay. And that's, and that speaks to what America represents. And I think we have to get back to appreciating that more.

Chai: 53:45

That is beautiful. And I, I really, I really want to give you the last word, but the one thing I wanna say that's specific to this is this is a very special moment for me and I think it proves your point, which is, I moved to this country 13 years ago and I am interviewing a congressman today. I don't think that would've happened in any other country in the world. So thank you for. Thank you for making my own immigrant journey so special. Thank you, Congressman. Thank you. Appreciate it. That was great, man. Thank you. I see why you kept keep winning. Warm Intro is produced by Gwan Moon, associate producer Alex Seko audio and video work by Jin Han, hosted by me.